MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander
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Planeswalkers as Commanders
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17657
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Author:  Swmystery [ 2016-May-18 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

crokaycete wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
Can I add Narset Transcendent to this list too?
This doesn't feel more broken than some Zur or Arcum or (other) Narset starts. I'm not saying broken Zur, Arcum, and Narset decks are where the format wants to be most of the time, but they certainly have a place.


Absolutely. However, if the introduction of planeswalkers would introduce more such commanders into the card pool, that does seem like a real cost. One that might be outweighed if most of them are useful, but still a cost.

Author:  Sovarius [ 2016-May-18 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

crokaycete wrote:
Especially with the 5 flip-walkers on the scene + the 5 precon commanders, there is just not that much that you can do strategically with a PW commander that you can't do with an existing legal commander. Yes, they provide slightly different implementation approaches, but I think you could pretty comfortably count the new deck archetypes you are opening up on your fingers. (My count is 1. Arlinn werewolf tribal 2. Ral Zarek coin flips 3. Tezzert, AoB UB artifacts)

The flip walkers function totally different than a normal walker. (except after they flip, then ofc are exactly a normal walker).

Why do you think it has to open new archetypes? I have never really though of that being important. I don't think not opening new types is cause for hesitation, it kind of seems like an added bonus. Being a different card type is huge, imo. That already lets you do a bunch of other different things and have to play differently in game, separate from very likely also building differently beforehand.

You are right they may be slightly different implementations in most cases, but some may be drastic. It is up to the builder. I think Tezzeret the Seeker can be built quite differently, and certainly play a hell of a lot differently, than Arcum Dagsson. Tezzeret's last ability in itself could be a whole deck plan, rather than 'tutor tutor, dies, recast, tutor tutor'.
I think mono-white weenies can build nearly identical between Isamaru and Elspeth, Knight-Errant, but i think they could play in game quite a bit differently.
Except for Basandra and Gisela i don't think you can rightly say there any RW legends suited for control (and Basandra is probably not actually suitable). Ajani Vengeant seems decently suitable.
Ashiok could be a generic mill deck, but it does something totally different that other mill commanders.
Yes there are 10 PW commanders, i just don't think 10 is a lot.

I could think of a few decks that can use a PW that doesn't have an already legal commander that fits that theme. I don't think that's going to help. Being that the general vision is not for PWs and is for legendary creatures i would agree that any gaps in commanders for certain archetypes are just going to remain gaps. I mean, i certainly don't want them to be there, i just don't really see that as mind changing as much as the flavor aspects, the different card type itself, and the pure numbers.

How 'wanted' or perceived to be wanted, or how 'real' in your perception must an archetype be to count? BW vampires with a Sorin would be cool. I understand there's not a ton of white vampire stuff, but still. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad would be really interesting, since he can produce emblems easily that stick around and makes things scary later. It's kind of similar to experience counters.

You could definitely add UW Blink with Venser to your list though.

Can UR artifacts count with Dack Fayden or Ral Zarek? Can a voltron with a Gideon count if you don't want to play with Kytheon (who makes the smallest gideon creature only after jumping through hoops). Does Narset Transcendant 'spells matter'/spellslinger count?
Nicol Bolas would be awesome. There's no commander like him. He feels like a boss, like the Garruk Apex Predator mini-game thing. Legendary creatures don't get to have multiple abilities like that. You can jam any UBG legendary creature and make a control deck, but he actually has Control Magic as an ability.

Swmystery wrote:
Can I add Narset Transcendent to this list too? UW colour identity (so excellent control colours), obnoxious ultimate, can possibly arrive on T2 off a Sol Ring (and +1 to go to 7 of the 9 required loyalty immediately). There's a disaster waiting to happen there.

You still have to get to turn 5 right? If it's a group that can't muster one single attack or burn/PW-removal, then you know that is the kind of move that is supposed to be self-regulated and not banned. If it is a group that can attack by that time... You are just going to get hurt and be focused every time. Like crokaycete said though, by turn 5 there are already commanders who have done damage at the same timeline.

edit: Sent you a pm, CMDTower

Author:  crokaycete [ 2016-May-18 5:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

Sovarius wrote:
Why do you think it has to open new archetypes? I have never really though of that being important. I don't think not opening new types is cause for hesitation, it kind of seems like an added bonus. Being a different card type is huge, imo. That already lets you do a bunch of other different things and have to play differently in game, separate from very likely also building differently beforehand.
I think saying that it's a different card type is not actually substantive. Isamaru is very different from Mageta the Lion is very different from Heliod. These are all creatures. Futhermore, you could add much more variety by allowing legendary Lands and Enchantments and Artifacts.

So the point should be more than "different is different." If you want to justify a fundamental change to the format, you need something beyond just that. One thing you could suggest is that it would open up deck styles that people want and are dissimilar to existing deck styles in the format (e.g., werewolf tribal.) That's neither necessary nor sufficient on its own, but it would help.

Author:  CMDTower [ 2016-May-18 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

crokaycete wrote:
One thing you could suggest is that it would open up deck styles that people want and are dissimilar to existing deck styles in the format (e.g., werewolf tribal.) .


Deck Ideas for PW Commanders were posted earlier in the post. I believe they are on page 20 or 21. That list was generated from feedback on Twitter when I asked the question.

I know I want to build a Garruk, Apex Predator deck. The deck would be themed around beasts and sacrificing them for added benefits. Cards like Thragtusk and others would make up the deck.

When it comes to play styles it would force the metas to change so they would include other cards that may not of been seen before in the format.

What would you build if PW were legal?

Author:  crokaycete [ 2016-May-18 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

CMDTower wrote:
What would you build if PW were legal?
Honestly, Tibalt. I like to build decks where, even when I'm winning, I'm doing something novel and my opponents feel like they are getting to come along for the ride on some crazy Rube Goldberg machine and see all kinds of cards they never expect to see, even in EDH. But there are lots of weird Legends I can (and do) play to similar effect already.

Almost every other PW feels like it is doing something equivalent to some Legendary creature or is just going to turn into boring a durdle fortress so that opposing creatures don't just beat your commander to death every time you cast it.

Durdle Fortress EDH is not a format that really appeals to me.

Author:  CMDTower [ 2016-May-18 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

crokaycete wrote:
CMDTower wrote:
What would you build if PW were legal?
Honestly, Tibalt. I like to build decks where, even when I'm winning, I'm doing something novel and my opponents feel like they are getting to come along for the ride on some crazy Rube Goldberg machine and see all kinds of cards they never expect to see, even in EDH. But there are lots of weird Legends I can (and do) play to similar effect already.

Almost every other PW feels like it is doing something equivalent to some Legendary creature or is just going to turn into boring a durdle fortress so that opposing creatures don't just beat your commander to death every time you cast it.

Durdle Fortress EDH is not a format that really appeals to me.


Tibalt would be an awesome commander. I would think Feldon would go in that deck for sure. I really hope he gets a new card in moon too so he could also be in your deck :)

Author:  JJackson [ 2016-May-19 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

crokaycete wrote:
Viperion wrote:
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or Karn Liberated
I'm not even convinced these cards are that good in EDH. Karn's + ability is pretty terrible in multiplayer and a 7 mana vindicate isn't exactly great either. Bolas is definitely stronger, but 8 grixis mana seems like a fine amount to pay for what he does.

The very high loyalty is what makes them playable, IMO. If you have any defensive position, you are probably getting at least two + activations. They're also helped in that they can fill color weaknesses; Bolas is also one of the few enchantment removal options for Grixis and Karn is one of the few creature removal options for Green.

Author:  crokaycete [ 2016-May-19 2:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

JJackson wrote:
The very high loyalty is what makes them playable, IMO. If you have any defensive position, you are probably getting at least two + activations. They're also helped in that they can fill color weaknesses; Bolas is also one of the few enchantment removal options for Grixis and Karn is one of the few creature removal options for Green.
I'll concede playable. I'm just not sure I would want to Karn that often when I could Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger for a couple mana more, immediately get the benefit of two Karn -3 activations, and get to keep a 10/10 indestructible for my trouble.

Author:  Sovarius [ 2016-May-19 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

Well Karn kills Iona, so that's something.

crokaycete wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Why do you think it has to open new archetypes? [...] Being a different card type is huge, imo.
I think saying that it's a different card type is not actually substantive. Isamaru is very different from Mageta the Lion is very different from Heliod. These are all creatures. Futhermore, you could add much more variety by allowing legendary Lands and Enchantments and Artifacts.

Yes but Mageta and Isamaru and Heliod are still all creatures. They are always going to have that major similarity, unlike the difference between Isamaru and Elspeth.

You could add more variety by allowing non-legendary mana rocks as commanders, but you already know i'm arguing from a point i've defined as being within reality (when i described PWs as plausible, unlike allowing Schemes or Planes to be commanders). That is, PWs are legendary creatures are all unique individuals. A legendary land is a unique location, not a commander. For example, i've played with Nephilim and would play against Nephilim, but i've never liked Genju of the Realm.

crokaycete wrote:
So the point should be more than "different is different." If you want to justify a fundamental change to the format, you need something beyond just that.

I'm certain i've done exactly that. You disagree.

Author:  cheethorne [ 2016-May-19 5:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

JJackson wrote:
Bolas is also one of the few enchantment removal options for Grixis and Karn is one of the few creature removal options for Green.

Yeah, but you can't play Karn as the Commander of a green deck. Karn Liberated can only be the Commander of a colourless deck, which really restricts what else you are going to do in the deck.

Author:  JJackson [ 2016-May-19 2:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

cheethorne wrote:
JJackson wrote:
Bolas is also one of the few enchantment removal options for Grixis and Karn is one of the few creature removal options for Green.

Yeah, but you can't play Karn as the Commander of a green deck. Karn Liberated can only be the Commander of a colourless deck, which really restricts what else you are going to do in the deck.

I was talking abstract EDH playability, which seemed to be the thing that crokaycete was calling into question. If we're talking playability as a commander, Karn Liberated would still in the top 5 colorless commanders for sure.

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-May-19 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

Top 5 colorless commanders? I though we only had 5.

Author:  crokaycete [ 2016-May-19 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

JJackson wrote:
I was talking abstract EDH playability, which seemed to be the thing that crokaycete was calling into question.
I meant as a commander. I was taking that from the thread context as a given, but you're right that I didn't actually say it.

Author:  JJackson [ 2016-May-20 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

niheloim wrote:
Top 5 colorless commanders? I though we only had 5.

:wink:

crokaycete wrote:
I meant as a commander. I was taking that from the thread context as a given, but you're right that I didn't actually say it.

NBD, I probably should have inferred it. It cuts the legs out from the "Karn is better than Desert Twister" argument, but the rest still stands. If you have a PW commander, you are likely to build in a way that enables the defensive board positions. Hmmm...now I have the urge to set up Nicky B behind the Heat Stroke+Goblin Warrens wall.

Author:  crokaycete [ 2016-May-20 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders

JJackson wrote:
If you have a PW commander, you are likely to build in a way that enables the defensive board positions.
This is actually an argument against allow PW commanders. Turbo-durdle PW EDH is not actually an appealing format.

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