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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-01 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I dunno man... Wouldn't you just run a bunch of wraths and slowly win a drawn out game off the ult.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-01 10:00 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
I dunno man... Wouldn't you just run a bunch of wraths and slowly win a drawn out game off the ult.


You wouldn't have to, if you can recast the pw you don't need as much protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-01 10:34 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
I dunno man... Wouldn't you just run a bunch of wraths and slowly win a drawn out game off the ult.
That plan falls apart for 3 reasons:
1) Ultimate ability typically only kills one player per use.
2) Are you seriously going to run enough wraths to cast one every single turn?
3) Ignoring wraths through a) haste; b) counterspell; c) indestructible; d) other wrath evasion.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 12:48 am 

Joined: 2014-Dec-16 6:04 am
Age: Drake
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I dunno man... Wouldn't you just run a bunch of wraths and slowly win a drawn out game off the ult.
That plan falls apart for 3 reasons:
1) Ultimate ability typically only kills one player per use.
2) Are you seriously going to run enough wraths to cast one every single turn?
3) Ignoring wraths through a) haste; b) counterspell; c) indestructible; d) other wrath evasion.


I disagree.

1. While some people might run Ajani Vengeant, most people are going to go after emblems if they are on the ultimate plan. Take Kiora. All anyone has to do is cast time walks or have doubling season to be in good shape to get krakens that kill everyone.

2. Why wouldn't someone do this if that is their plan? We're making wraths better too. That doesn't sound like a net positive for the format to me.

3. How is the format better with everyone running more of this stuff just to deal with planeswalker generals? This is a net negative.

My main problem with them is the middle abilities. You can just run them into the ground over and over again for middle abilities. So we're making time walks and doubling season better and probably getting Lilliana Vess and Sorin Markov banned. How does that make Commander better?


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 2:59 am 
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Joined: 2015-Apr-21 2:05 am
Age: Drake
Matt wrote:
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
I dunno man... Wouldn't you just run a bunch of wraths and slowly win a drawn out game off the ult.
That plan falls apart for 3 reasons:
1) Ultimate ability typically only kills one player per use.
2) Are you seriously going to run enough wraths to cast one every single turn?
3) Ignoring wraths through a) haste; b) counterspell; c) indestructible; d) other wrath evasion.


I disagree.

1. While some people might run Ajani Vengeant, most people are going to go after emblems if they are on the ultimate plan. Take Kiora. All anyone has to do is cast time walks or have doubling season to be in good shape to get krakens that kill everyone.

2. Why wouldn't someone do this if that is their plan? We're making wraths better too. That doesn't sound like a net positive for the format to me.

3. How is the format better with everyone running more of this stuff just to deal with planeswalker generals? This is a net negative.

My main problem with them is the middle abilities. You can just run them into the ground over and over again for middle abilities. So we're making time walks and doubling season better and probably getting Lilliana Vess and Sorin Markov banned. How does that make Commander better?


Yes you could use the minus abilities but the cost becomes greater and greater because of the Command Zone tax.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 5:36 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Matt wrote:
Willbender wrote:
1) Ultimate ability typically only kills one player per use.
2) Are you seriously going to run enough wraths to cast one every single turn?
3) Ignoring wraths through a) haste; b) counterspell; c) indestructible; d) other wrath evasion.
1. While some people might run Ajani Vengeant, most people are going to go after emblems if they are on the ultimate plan. Take Kiora. All anyone has to do is cast time walks or have doubling season to be in good shape to get krakens that kill everyone.
2. Why wouldn't someone do this if that is their plan? We're making wraths better too. That doesn't sound like a net positive for the format to me.
3. How is the format better with everyone running more of this stuff just to deal with planeswalker generals? This is a net negative.
1. Still less oppressive than many other currently legal generals - and the multiple time walk scenario is not the threat (if you can time walk enough times to get to the ultimate, you damn well should have won with any deck). Doubling season is the only real problem here, but that requires running green, and most/all the green planeswalkers' ultimates are creature-based and interactive threats.

2. The point is that running 100% wraths is just not a real option. You can already do this, but it's already not done for a reason - it's less reliable than other lockdown deckbuilds, and far easier to disrupt. Also, several of the new "better wraths" take out PWs, too.

3. You seriously think people don't already run these things? Does your meta seriously not run any counterspells or creatures with abilities? I don't have a single deck that couldn't already deal with an all-wrath PW deck. Any blue deck - counterspells. Thrun deck - general regens. Zombie deck - general has haste. Ashling deck - lots of burn. Doran - worst off, but there are indestructible creatures, equipment that gives indest./haste, and various bits of spot removal.

Matt wrote:
My main problem with them is the middle abilities. You can just run them into the ground over and over again for middle abilities. So we're making time walks and doubling season better and probably getting Lilliana Vess and Sorin Markov banned. How does that make Commander better?
So? Sorin is already a card that everyone hates to see hit the field, and creates feel-bad games whenever he shows up, so I don't think that's a big loss, anyway. Liliana Vess's ability is good, but less gamebreaking than other generals' abilities, and forces you into mono-black. Really, other than Sorin, what PWs minus ability is better than another potential general's ability, or a decent artifact/enchantment effect?

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 11:36 am 
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Joined: 2015-Apr-21 2:05 am
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Sheldon, are the view points laid out in this post so far things that the Rules Committee considered?

Also, what do you feel are the positives and the negatives to Planeswalkers becoming Commanders?


Last edited by CMDTower on 2015-May-02 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 4:47 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
2. The point is that running 100% wraths is just not a real option. You can already do this, but it's already not done for a reason - it's less reliable than other lockdown deckbuilds, and far easier to disrupt. Also, several of the new "better wraths" take out PWs, too.

Currently I do not think that there is a general that lets you win the game just by itself, just by being in play, which also survives wrath effects.

Willbender wrote:
Matt wrote:
My main problem with them is the middle abilities. You can just run them into the ground over and over again for middle abilities. So we're making time walks and doubling season better and probably getting Lilliana Vess and Sorin Markov banned. How does that make Commander better?
So? Sorin is already a card that everyone hates to see hit the field, and creates feel-bad games whenever he shows up, so I don't think that's a big loss, anyway. Liliana Vess's ability is good, but less gamebreaking than other generals' abilities, and forces you into mono-black. Really, other than Sorin, what PWs minus ability is better than another potential general's ability, or a decent artifact/enchantment effect?

Cards being added to the ban list is a point against making the change.

Honestly, I just think that allowing planeswalkers as generals is different enough that it could almost be a different format.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 5:34 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
Currently I do not think that there is a general that lets you win the game just by itself, just by being in play, which also survives wrath effects.
Nor does a planeswalker - they'd have to use abilities. Or are you saying the planeswalker can use abilities but the creature can't? Trying to compare a PW using its abilities to a creature not using its abilities or being allowed to attack is ludicrous. That's like me saying that you get a PW, I get a creature, and we both get to drop in Pithing Needles, then comparing power levels. It's not a genuine comparison of quality.

MrCool wrote:
Willbender wrote:
So? Sorin is already a card that everyone hates to see hit the field, and creates feel-bad games whenever he shows up, so I don't think that's a big loss, anyway. Liliana Vess's ability is good, but less gamebreaking than other generals' abilities, and forces you into mono-black. Really, other than Sorin, what PWs minus ability is better than another potential general's ability, or a decent artifact/enchantment effect?
Cards being added to the ban list is a point against making the change.
Way to totally miss my point. My point is that Sorin Markov would not be made any more broken or unfun by being a general - he's broken and unfun now. And he's in black - with their depth of tutors and graveyard recursion, you can already find and recast him to almost the level of a general, anyway. Being made a general isn't going to make someone who wants to piss off the table with him any worse than he already can be.

Also, I notice that you totally sidestepped my question: Can you name a single other planeswalker whose minus ability would be considered broken on a general?

MrCool wrote:
Honestly, I just think that allowing planeswalkers as generals is different enough that it could almost be a different format.
...and removing tuck is enough to be a different format.
...and changing the color identity rules is enough to be a different format.
...and allowing generals other than Elder Dragons is enough to be a different format.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 6:49 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
Honestly, I just think that allowing planeswalkers as generals is different enough that it could almost be a different format.


I understand your hesitancy towards a possible change, I do. I felt the same way towards the new tuck rule and after playing with it for a month, I haven't really noticed a change. There are still ways to deal with problematic generals and we can all adapt.

Also right now there are some Commanders that are Planeswalkers and there will be even more of them once Origins comes out. The Planeswalkers that are out currently didn't break the format and honestly I haven't seen that many decks built around them (even tho degenerate builds can occur around each of them).

MrCool I do want to thank you tho for continuing this discussion because I can tell your feedback comes from a place of honesty and that you do truly care about the format as we all do.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 8:21 pm 
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Location: Colorado
I have a few things to say on this subject. I love this format. This is pretty much all I do as a magic player. I thank the rules committee for giving me a outlet to hang out with friends and have a good time after a long week.

1. As a person who allows this in a play group of about 15 there has been no problem. Everyone in the group has created and played PW's against Legendary creatures and there has been no issue. Regular politics handle any problems that may occur.

2. Thematically a PW as a general makes perfect sense. They, for the most part, work exactly like a legendary creature. In most cases you are opting out on 21 commander damage for sorcery speed PW effects and with PW's taking damage and it not erasing it actually forces people to focus on there commander more which should be the centerpiece of there build.

3. It allows for interesting new builds. Even though the PW's offer underwhelming advantage compared to there legendary counterparts they do point at new and interesting deck ideas.

4. I think that if the committee would look at this as to why they should allow it as opposed to why they shouldn't they would perhaps see it differently. I suggest building a deck and trying it out. At one time commander was not a big thing but you got more and more people to try it and it became huge. Why wouldn't you give this a try as well? I think people are really scared of change that said don't knock it till you try it, and if you don't like it you can just build creature decks. I bet that most end up having at least 1 PW build.

5. Unfortunately with getting rid of banned as commander I think the rules committee has made it more difficult to allow PW's as commander. If a problem did arrive that caused a banning there is no way to soft ban a card anymore. I would not want to see them banned in the format because we allowed PW's as commanders. Any rules change that causes more bannings in my mind is not worth a rules change.

6. Keeping this local meta is fine but if I build a PW deck I would love if I could sit down with anyone and they accepted it as a commander. The committee should make rules that promote more community interaction instead of more local meta disconnection.

Thank you for your time and I would love to hear from people on this, hopefully in a non hostile manner. I know how defensive magic players can be sometimes including myself when we see change.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 9:46 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
Currently I do not think that there is a general that lets you win the game just by itself, just by being in play, which also survives wrath effects.
Nor does a planeswalker - they'd have to use abilities. Or are you saying the planeswalker can use abilities but the creature can't? Trying to compare a PW using its abilities to a creature not using its abilities or being allowed to attack is ludicrous. That's like me saying that you get a PW, I get a creature, and we both get to drop in Pithing Needles, then comparing power levels. It's not a genuine comparison of quality.

Let me clarify. You said that currently people could run decks that run all the wrath effect but they don't. What I was saying was that there aren't really any legendary creatures that could take advantage of a deck like that (except for zurgo), whereas a lot of planeswalkers as commanders would single-handedly win the game.
Willbender wrote:
Way to totally miss my point.

I think I just misunderstood. I thought you meant that you would be fine with that card being banned. I don't really disagree with anything you said in terms of the point you were making.
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
Honestly, I just think that allowing planeswalkers as generals is different enough that it could almost be a different format.
...and removing tuck is enough to be a different format.
...and changing the color identity rules is enough to be a different format.
...and allowing generals other than Elder Dragons is enough to be a different format.

You make it sound like the change has already been made.

Let me point out some differences with legendary creatures and planeswalkers.

Generally, planeswalkers do not deal general damage. General damage is one of the fundamental aspects of the game which planeswalkers completely ignore. To be fair, there are legendary creatures that do not lend themselves to having their general damage be relevant, but at least it is still an option. As a rule, planeswalkers will not be able to deal general damage.

All planeswalkers give incremental value the longer they are in play. Some legendary creatures give value over time, but most do not. This aspect of the card type gives an added incentive to protect your general which would have an effect deck building for literally every planeswalker as general deck. While it can still be good to protect a legendary creature as a general, it is not on the same level of protecting a planeswalker. You can always replay the creature, but with planeswalkers you have to start over with the loyalty.

All planeswalkers are mythic rares and generally cost more money than legendary creatures. There is more of a barrier to have a planeswalker as a general vs a legendary creature. And Liliana of the Veil is like $80... jeez.

Generally, fast mana is better for planeswalkers than legendary creatures. Getting a planeswalker out sooner when there are few creatures in play lets you get higher loyalty faster and can be the difference between getting the ult off and not, which could win the game. No legendary creatures give any kind of advantage like that from being in play for one or two extra turns.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 11:20 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
Let me clarify. You said that currently people could run decks that run all the wrath effect but they don't. What I was saying was that there aren't really any legendary creatures that could take advantage of a deck like that (except for zurgo), whereas a lot of planeswalkers as commanders would single-handedly win the game.

There are plenty of others, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic is a great example. He doesn't even need to be in play to provide an advantage to the player. He makes an insanely good control Commander. There is also Derevi, Empyrial Tactician. Derevi can come out as many times as he wants for 4 mana... board wipes and locked board states are a constant problem with this commander.

MrCool wrote:
Generally, planeswalkers do not deal general damage. General damage is one of the fundamental aspects of the game which planeswalkers completely ignore. To be fair, there are legendary creatures that do not lend themselves to having their general damage be relevant, but at least it is still an option. As a rule, planeswalkers will not be able to deal general damage.

So in this situation you are saying allowing Planeswalkers to be Commanders would put them at a disadvantage... I would gladly accept this disadvantage to be able to play as my favorite Planeswalker.

MrCool wrote:
All planeswalkers give incremental value the longer they are in play. Some legendary creatures give value over time, but most do not. This aspect of the card type gives an added incentive to protect your general which would have an effect deck building for literally every planeswalker as general deck. While it can still be good to protect a legendary creature as a general, it is not on the same level of protecting a planeswalker. You can always replay the creature, but with planeswalkers you have to start over with the loyalty.

If a player builds around their General all Commanders gain incremental value b/c players are casting cards that support their Commander.

MrCool wrote:
All planeswalkers are mythic rares and generally cost more money than legendary creatures. There is more of a barrier to have a planeswalker as a general vs a legendary creature. And Liliana of the Veil is like $80... jeez.

With all due respect MrCool, price shouldn't be a consideration in a rules discussion. A card's validity should be the only thing.

MrCool wrote:
Generally, fast mana is better for planeswalkers than legendary creatures. Getting a planeswalker out sooner when there are few creatures in play lets you get higher loyalty faster and can be the difference between getting the ult off and not, which could win the game. No legendary creatures give any kind of advantage like that from being in play for one or two extra turns.

I disagree entirely, usually combo generals run on speed. If they can get out and stay out for a turn they will win. Arcum Dagsson is a fantastic example of this.

More examples of this:
    Sharuum the Hegemon
    Zur the Enchanter
    The Mimeoplasm
    Ghave, Guru of Spores
    Narset, Enlightened Master
    Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
    Karn, Silver Golem

Planeswalkers do not have anywhere close to this sort of speed and are limited by their actions per turn.


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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-02 11:34 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
Let me clarify. You said that currently people could run decks that run all the wrath effect but they don't. What I was saying was that there aren't really any legendary creatures that could take advantage of a deck like that (except for zurgo), whereas a lot of planeswalkers as commanders would single-handedly win the game.
If you want to talk indestructible creatures, in addition to Zurgo Helmsmasher there are all 15 Gods, 5 Myojin, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Konda, Lord of Eiganjo, Sapling of Colfenor, Sliver Hivelord, Tajic, Blade of the Legion, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre.
If we include only those with red, white, and black (the colors with the most wrath effects), we still end up with 21 viable generals - many of whom already see play.

MrCool wrote:
Willbender wrote:
MrCool wrote:
Honestly, I just think that allowing planeswalkers as generals is different enough that it could almost be a different format.
...and removing tuck is enough to be a different format.
...and changing the color identity rules is enough to be a different format.
...and allowing generals other than Elder Dragons is enough to be a different format.
You make it sound like the change has already been made.
No, I'm making the point that there have been changes in the past that people have considered to warp the format into something it was not. This wouldn't be a bigger change than many of those that came before.

MrCool wrote:
General damage is one of the fundamental aspects of the game which planeswalkers completely ignore. To be fair, there are legendary creatures that do not lend themselves to having their general damage be relevant, but at least it is still an option.
Norin the Wary disagrees.
More seriously, though, this cannot really be considered a strike against planeswalkers. If anything, the lack of combat damage can be considered to make the PWs weaker. Stronger generals may be a problem for the format; optional weaker ones are definitely not.

MrCool wrote:
While it can still be good to protect a legendary creature as a general, it is not on the same level of protecting a planeswalker. You can always replay the creature, but with planeswalkers you have to start over with the loyalty.
Only if you're playing for the ultimate ability, and I don't believe that's going to be the focus of most PW-led decks. Also, I don't believe we've seen this potential problem occur with the 5 currently legal planeswalkers.

MrCool wrote:
All planeswalkers are mythic rares and generally cost more money than legendary creatures. There is more of a barrier to have a planeswalker as a general vs a legendary creature. And Liliana of the Veil is like $80... jeez.
First off, pricing of outlier cards should have no part of this discussion - this is about game rules, not the secondary market. Let's address it anyway, though... Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the only other planeswalker currently going for over $50. There are 5 legendary creatures that average over $50. Additionally, less than 1/3 of the planeswalkers are over $10. Nearly half the planeswalkers can be bought for under $5, and Tibalt, Vraska, and one of the Jaces are going for $1 to $2.

MrCool wrote:
Generally, fast mana is better for planeswalkers than legendary creatures. Getting a planeswalker out sooner when there are few creatures in play lets you get higher loyalty faster and can be the difference between getting the ult off and not, which could win the game. No legendary creatures give any kind of advantage like that from being in play for one or two extra turns.
This argument fails to convince me for multiple reasons.
First, there are creatures that gain advantage over time - anything that builds counters, give effects on attacking, or that you're just flat out going for a speed kill with. Add in token generating generals (like Rhys the Redeemed) and you've got plenty of generals that get better the longer they're out.
Secondly, the only really good ramp color is green, so this falls flat for me for the exact same reasons I don't find Doubling Season to be a problem - the planeswalkers with green have their ultimate abilities based around creature combat threats, which are interactive and non-oppressive threats - the type of threats that are not considered a problem playstyle.
Third, if you can cast your general early with ramp, you could also tutor and cast a planeswalker from the 99 - if it isn't a problem in that situation, it's not going to be a problem as the general.
Lastly, if you're mana ramping, there are a lot more serious threats you can drop in than a planeswalker. Such as getting an Eldrazi out in the first few turns. I'd deal with a planeswalker over that any day.

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 Post subject: Re: Planeswalkers as Commanders
AgePosted: 2015-May-03 3:04 am 

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What i would really like to know, is why this isn't already a rule?
If it was a question of flavor - A.) I subscribe to the legendary entity argument - it is intuitive to me that a Planeswalker could be a commander and i am surprised they are not. B.) There are Planeswalkers that can be used as commanders now, and are from precons no less, making them largely available anyways. If the ugly line of text "This can be a commander derp derp" is a flavor justification (which would be weak), then it is for all other walkers. If it is a flavor foul, then ban them as commanders since walkers were never intended to be allowed by the format design (which is not determined by WOTC).

If it was a question of power level - A.) what would be so bad about banning a few? "More bans for the format are negative" doesn't really apply if we actually have a large net on the number of playable commanders, in my opinion. Yes, we removed the Banned-as-a-Commander list (which i still hate! :p ) so potentially a planeswalker in people's 99's gets banned entirely if it proves to be an issue as a commander. But of course, that is a sacrifice i can live with since i already think they should have been allowed a long time ago. B.) It is a thought experiment to gauge power level before any real testing, but as others have noted, very few of the planeswalkers would even be any good as commanders. I would not play Tezz-Seeker over Arcum Dagsson. I would not play ANY Jace or Tamiyo over Azami. I would not play Ajani Mentor over Sisay. I would not play Tibalt. I would not play WB Sorins over Teysa Scion. I would not play Ral Zarek or Dack Fayden over Nin and Niv Mizzet. I would not play Venser over Roon or Augustin. I would not play Tibalt.
Although, on the other hand, almost all of those would be very cool to play with for fun, or against.


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