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 Post subject: New player, old question...
AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 6:33 am 

Joined: 2007-Sep-06 6:01 am
Age: Hatchling
Location: Portland ME
I was just wondering why Crucible was banned. Just curious. The rest of the cards on the list made sense to me, but that didn't.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 8:50 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
The reason they usually cite is strip/waste recursion. Kinda weak, I know.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 10:11 am 

Joined: 2007-Sep-06 6:01 am
Age: Hatchling
Location: Portland ME
In a multi-player format, thats a week anyway. Armageddon, Devastating Dreams, Thoughts of ruin, etc. are all way more brutal. I would be more concerned with fastbond/crucible or some such. I guess you ban the artifact, and leave green its toy. But it is the only card on the list that is not:

1) Singlehandedly Broken (lotus, balance, etc)
2) Taking advantage of the unique qualities of the format. (Sway the Stars etc...)


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 1:29 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
When I asked the same question of Genomancer (of the Rules Commitee) he said (not an exact quote), "The reason Crucible is banned is that, while not overwhelmingly broken, the only way to use it is to be a dick."

When you're not going infinite with Fastbond, or simply Stripping a land every turn, Crucible of Worlds is pretty much unexciting (if not useless). Basically, there's no fun way to use Crucible of Worlds, so it's banned.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 1:35 pm 

Joined: 2007-Sep-06 6:01 am
Age: Hatchling
Location: Portland ME
I think it is a damn cool card, so that's too bad. Should I defend it? or is this a forgone conclusion?


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-06 5:07 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-16 6:43 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Waukesha, WI
It's probably a forgone conclusion, but in several of my casual non-EDH decks I'd play Crucible with cycling lands. But would it be worth playing with, say, 6 cyclers in a 3 color EDH deck?


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-07 6:07 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 10:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Oberlin, OH, USA
Quote:
But would it be worth playing with, say, 6 cyclers in a 3 color EDH deck?


I'm not sure how you get cycling lands to interact with Crucible without some other assistance. Crucible doesn't allow you to play the cycling ability of land cards in your graveyard -- it only allows you to play those cards.

The cycling lands are, however, very good by themselves. EDH games go long. Lands drawn late aren't all that useful. Being able to trade them in for different cards is terrific. Coming into play tapped is less of a disadvantage in EDH than in many formats.

I run all four available to me in my 2-color deck.

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-07 10:45 am 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
In my group they let me play it in one deck (not the deck with the strip effects and braids and smokestack, though life from the loam is in that). It's in my discard deck, mainly because I can use it to play lands I am forced to discard in the late game. It isn't very abusive, so no one minds it - I asked everyone before putting it in. They also seem to be willing to let me use my Library of Alexandria with the caveat it doesn't go into any deck with blue in it.


House rules are up to the house. Ask your play group, but make it explicit what you intend to use it for. Cycling lands seem fair with crucible - it is card advantage, but nothing broken.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-07 5:43 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-16 6:43 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Waukesha, WI
wcc3 wrote:
I'm not sure how you get cycling lands to interact with Crucible without some other assistance. Crucible doesn't allow you to play the cycling ability of land cards in your graveyard -- it only allows you to play those cards.


I just cycle them away as normal to dig through my deck, then play them out of the 'yard later for land drops. I know I can't graveyard-cycle with Crucible.

And believe me - I played enough during Saga to know just how good cycling can be. ;)


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-07 10:31 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jul-01 10:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Carbondale, IL
Crucible would also set up Slaver locks off of Gifts Ungiven. You'd just have to search up Slaver, Academy Ruins, Crucible and Petrified Field (and assuming you have the mana) and it's over. And there are so many ways to search up Gifts that this is one of the few combos that would really work in a Singleton format.

Obviously this only matters in duals.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-08 6:26 am 

Joined: 2006-Jun-07 2:06 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
AKFox wrote:
Crucible would also set up Slaver locks off of Gifts Ungiven. You'd just have to search up Slaver, Academy Ruins, Crucible and Petrified Field (and assuming you have the mana) and it's over. And there are so many ways to search up Gifts that this is one of the few combos that would really work in a Singleton format.

Obviously this only matters in duals.


but again, you only lock one player (what many decks can do)...
as said before, Crucible is just unfun...

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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-08 5:18 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jul-01 10:03 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Carbondale, IL
Well, I did say that it only works in duals.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-08 10:06 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
TheCramp wrote:
In a multi-player format, thats a week anyway.

Presuming you mean weak, it can still be very effective at taking out one player, say, and is generally a very "unfun " card.

TheCramp wrote:
Armageddon, Devastating Dreams, Thoughts of ruin, etc. are all way more brutal.

Yes, but these also fall under that same "unfun" umbrella, and you'll find if you play 2 games with the same opponents with a deck that plays such effects, that your second game will typically result in your taking an early bath. But to ban them all would be a little devoid of good sense.

TheCramp wrote:
But it is the only card on the list that is not:

1) Singlehandedly Broken (lotus, balance, etc)
2) Taking advantage of the unique qualities of the format. (Sway the Stars etc...)


Not quite true. Moxes, Lotus, are far from broken in this format, just expensive. Hence Sol Ring is legal. And Shaharazad is just plain disruptive.

Quote:
Well, I did say that it only works in duals.

When there's two of us around we tend to play duels.


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AgePosted: 2007-Sep-09 10:27 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
I think people tend to forget Crucible can be used defensively. I've tutored for it when there's been a Dwarven Blastminer/Trench Wurm out or a suspended Detritivore. That's fair and not "unfun. But yeah, if it is globally legal, people will ause it more often than not.


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