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 Post subject: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 11:55 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-18 7:46 am
Age: Hatchling
Hey all, every now and then I see the topic of cyclonic rift come up when people talk about ban worthy cards. I personally don't invest into the debate as only one person In my playgroup uses it but I'm curious as to what the community thinks of it. Is it a little too much? Instant speed one sided mass reset. I know it's strong but I'm curious as to why it's never really been seen as a hot topic as far as bans go. Thanks :)


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Well, it's just not strong enough to warrant a ban. Most importantly, it says "non-land" on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 3:19 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Well, it's just not strong enough to warrant a ban. Most importantly, it says "non-land" on it.
That one word is what separates Cyclonic Rift and ruins all the fun forever.

Also known as Upheaval.

Cyclonic Rift is one of those cards which can be super annoying, but isn't much more than that. Even if the caster doesn't use it to immediately win the game, getting to keep all your land helps a lot (although it punishes people who rely too much on artifacts, enchantments, and creatures for their mana).

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 4:04 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I tend to think it's bullshit, but i am kind of a person who really likes powerful cards and there's many cads on the ban list i want off. (i'm sad about Prophet, but i've always said the card is a bummer in this format).

Like in casual games, though, it's bullshit. I don't think the nonland clause really justifies it. I think people defend it by saying "well, i get my EtB effects again!". Yea, nope, i'd rather not slow play through my medium-high cmc drops while someone else lost nothing. Yea, nope, i don't really like having to discard (effectively destroying permanents in a roundabout way). Yea, nope, being set with everyone else while one person is greenlit for free attacks is almost always better than an actual extra turn. Yea, nope, fuck you Mnemonic Wall.

Idk, that's just me. I think Aetherspouts and Aetherize and Aether Gale are a lot more friendly, even if not as effective. Probably the only way those are more effective is you can sort of play them politically.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 4:43 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Mardu Madness wrote:
I personally don't invest into the debate as only one person In my playgroup uses it but I'm curious as to what the community thinks of it. Is it a little too much? Instant speed one sided mass reset. I know it's strong but I'm curious as to why it's never really been seen as a hot topic as far as bans go.

Well, it is talked about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRVhExa_mhc&t=46m32s
Jimmy: "Once a card needs to be in every single deck that can play that color . . . you know there's something going on, that you should pay attention to it."
Josh: "I think right now, if I were actually going to ban cards, my number 1 would be Iona (of what we've mentioned so far), but this would be my number 2."

It's in the category of "cards I wouldn't be sorry to see banned, but don't care enough to ask the Rules Committee or my playgroup to actually ban." It's way too good, even at 10 mana to overload it would still probably be a little too good. It doesn't ruin games, but it does end them. It's non-interactive in that it's an instant, so the only color that can really interact with it is Blue (yeah, I know, Guttural Response & Ghostway & others exist, but they are the very rare exceptions to this rule).

It wouldn't be a problem if it were just really powerful, or if it just went into every Blue deck. Eternal Witness goes into as many Green decks, and is fine. Cataclysm is often just as strong (if not stronger), and is fine. It's the combination of the two factors that turn it into a yawn-inducer every time I see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-18 8:46 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
It doesn't ruin games, but it does end them.

I don't think I've ever seen it end a game. I've seen it played before Armageddon, but I think Armageddon is ending the game more so than Cyclonic Rift. If you are just using it for a value play, it's like taking an extra turn, but sometimes worse because opponents still draw, play lands, repeat ETB triggers.

intreped wrote:
It's way too good, even at 10 mana to overload it would still probably be a little too good.

I would always rather play Time Stretch over it.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 2:13 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
People groan when it sees play at our tables, but, our tables are *intensely* casual. We all voluntarily and without explicit agreement have dropped things like Sylvan Primordial and Prophet of Kruphix long before they were hit by the banhammer.

I can see our group saying "this ain't fun" and dropping it. So, maybe banned in a few years?

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 2:35 am 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-28 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Seattle
I honestly see it cast as a boomerang these days more than the overloaded version. I'm not sure what that says about my games but it cannot be good.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 2:58 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Cyclonic Rift is fine, the fact that it's even being discussed tells me people have no talent for evaluating the power level of a card. The only situation in which Rift is even close to being game-winning is if the person casting it already has a player-killing board state and rift is being cast to clear away blockers and other roadblocks, otherwise:

what's that you overloaded cyclonic rift?

Tooth & Nail. die

Deadeye Navigator & Palinchron. die

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + one of a million other two card combos. die

Mikaeus the Unhallowed + Triskelion. die

Purphoros, God of Being a Boring Douchebag + Avenger of Zendikar or my general Prossh. die

Replay my General Animar. combo off and win or at least get everything haste and kill you because animar is broken as shit.

Haste-y Kaalia into Avacyn + Landwipe because lame decks are lame.

rebuild my board in a single turn with super broken cards like Necropotence, Vorinclex, Greater Good, Food Chain, Omniscience.

Mind Over Matter + Temple Bell. die

SAnguine Bond + Exquisite Blood. die

Chain time spells into recurring time spells. die of boredom.

There are so many other cards that are more boring and more broken in this format that discussing rift is a worthless joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 3:24 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Gath, the issue with comparing Rift to all those combos is that the 2-pump chump combo guy knows he's being cheesy with these combos.

The Rift guy who put players back turns of development at instant speed or sets up a clear board for the win at EOT just sees it as another control card.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 3:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
zimagic wrote:
Gath, the issue with comparing Rift to all those combos is that the 2-pump chump combo guy knows he's being cheesy with these combos.

The Rift guy who put players back turns of development at instant speed or sets up a clear board for the win at EOT just sees it as another control card.

Agree with this a lot.

Also, I think a card like Rift hurts players that enjoy slinging Cluestones much more than it hurts players that enjoy slinging Mana Vaults and Mana Crypts, and that's a feel-bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 4:28 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's exactly what blue does. Evacuation, Hurkyl's Recall, Sunder, Aetherize, Echoing Truth, Hibernation, Rebuild, etc. The majority of these types of mass bounce effects are instant speed. There are a good amount of sorcery speed as well but it's what blue is supposed to do.

How do you "play around it?" Don't let the blue player get to a board state that lets them capitalize on the tempo. Force them to blow it defensively. Copy it. Reduce your curve. Phasing/EoT blinks. Don't overextend. Basically, all the things you should already be striving for with a few specific responses.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 5:47 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Cyclonic Rift is a fantastic card. Its powerful enough, but not in an unfair way.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 6:39 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Cyclonic Rift is fine, the fact that it's even being discussed tells me people have no talent for evaluating the power level of a card.


waaaah, Temporal Manipulation, EDH Overlords please make a no extra turns rule ?

Gath Immortal wrote:
what's that you overloaded cyclonic rift?

Tooth & Nail. die

If you have 9 mana anyway, then why didn't you just T&N already? I'm more likely to use rift for 2 mana or overload AFTER someone Tooth's.

Gath Immortal wrote:

Why do you have this much mana?

Gath Immortal wrote:
Purphoros, God of Being a Boring Douchebag
animar is broken as shit.
Haste-y Kaalia into Avacyn + Landwipe because lame decks are lame.

Goooood, let the salt flow through you

Gath Immortal wrote:
rebuild my board in a single turn with super broken cards like Necropotence, Vorinclex, Greater Good, Food Chain, Omniscience.

How in the hell does Vorinclex rebuild your board in a single turn? He costs 8 and you'd have to have additional lands after to double.
Greater Good draws you cards if you have fatties to sac. How do you cast Fatties and Greater Good in one turn, and then even come close to having mana to play cards of Greater Good?

All i need to know that you are bad is "Necropotence rebuilds board state in one turn".


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 3:42 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
I think the issue isn't that it's a mass bounce card. I think the issue is that it's a mass bounce card that's easy to cast. I play mono blue (Teferi, Temporal Archamge), and it's a necessary evil that I have to play due the lack of nonland mass removal you have access to in blue. I will typically rift on a combat step or during an end step of a player who had (in my opinion) too many powerful permanents, in order to force discards.

However, I have played it plenty of times without paying its overload cost, due to it still being quite efficient at being a bounce spell. I don't believe it deserves banning, though.

If I can't convince you:
Epsilon wrote:
It's exactly what blue does. Evacuation, Hurkyl's Recall, Sunder, Aetherize, Echoing Truth, Hibernation, Rebuild, etc. The majority of these types of mass bounce effects are instant speed. There are a good amount of sorcery speed as well but it's what blue is supposed to do.

How do you "play around it?" Don't let the blue player get to a board state that lets them capitalize on the tempo. Force them to blow it defensively. Copy it. Reduce your curve. Phasing/EoT blinks. Don't overextend. Basically, all the things you should already be striving for with a few specific responses.

This. A thousand times this.


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