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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-14 5:41 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Epsilon wrote:
Proper use of board wipes are always one sided or at least heavily skewed in your favor... No one wipes the board when they're ahead. There are enough options at this point that every wipe you play can give you an advantage. Playing Voltron? Play one that leaves a single creature. Playing big creatures? Play one that gives -x/-x. Playing Flyers? Play Earthquakes. Playing from the yard? Living Death with a sac outlet... Playing Avacyn? Nev's Disk? Dragons? Crux of Fate.

Rift is a versatile removal spell because it can be used on a single problem permanent, it can reset everyone but you to press an advantage or it can save your ass to give you some time. Does that make it better than the other instant speed answers he showed? Situationally. Are any of them ban worthy? No.


All your examples clears the board of opposing creatures, not all nonland permanents. Most of them aren't instant speed.

But I understand what you mean, why bother playing board wipes if it doesn't give you an edge? I don't think CR should be banned, but I don't like the card and think it's played way too much.

It wouldn't bother me at all if it gets banned, it'll force players to be a bit more creative. It's just an easy panic button, a card that allows bad players to escape their well deserved doom, or an easy clear-the-path card. In Wheel of Time lingo, for lack of a better way for me to put it, there's no 'Ji' to be gained here :)

Apart from that, I don't like how it causes heaps of collateral damage. It's like firing an Armageddon to get rid of a problematic Maze of Ith, sure it gets the job done, but it slows the game down, punishes non-green players who have to work hard to build up a mana base excessively, and is so cheap that it easily leaves the controller with plenty of mana to build up before others have a chance to recover. Cards like In Garruk's wake, Hurkyl's Recall or Plague Wind don't hit all permanents, are sorcery speed and cost more to cast than CR. These cards are way more balanced or 'fair' imo.

tl;dr : Not banworthy, but a lame card


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-15 8:19 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
I mean, I don't like Tooth and Nail either, but the chance that someone might play it doesn't really effects the way I'm playing myself.

If they are playing it for combo you don't hold a piece of removal to keep from losing on the spot?

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-15 11:16 pm 
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MRHblue wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
I mean, I don't like Tooth and Nail either, but the chance that someone might play it doesn't really effects the way I'm playing myself.

If they are playing it for combo you don't hold a piece of removal to keep from losing on the spot?

In the words of one of a famous hip-hop great, that's easier said than done.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-16 4:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
Proper use of board wipes are always one sided or at least heavily skewed in your favor... No one wipes the board when they're ahead. There are enough options at this point that every wipe you play can give you an advantage. Playing Voltron? Play one that leaves a single creature. Playing big creatures? Play one that gives -x/-x. Playing Flyers? Play Earthquakes. Playing from the yard? Living Death with a sac outlet... Playing Avacyn? Nev's Disk? Dragons? Crux of Fate.

Rift is a versatile removal spell because it can be used on a single problem permanent, it can reset everyone but you to press an advantage or it can save your ass to give you some time. Does that make it better than the other instant speed answers he showed? Situationally. Are any of them ban worthy? No.


The problem I've seen expressed in the many trains of thought on this thread and in the numerous ones that came before it, is that "Cyclonic Rift needs to have a set up to really capitalize on the aftermath."

Prophet of Kruphix was banned despite being an enabler of broken crap, but needed a hand full of ammo or some ridiculous bounce engine in place. Prophet can't win the game by itself, was restricted to decks that were running U/G/x and just sat there without ammo. It was a ubiquitous card that made some unfair situations, but it still had restrictions.

Cyclonic Rift however has no such restrictions. It has the easiest boardwipe casting cost of anything anyone has mentioned, is a completely one sided board reset minus lands and can be played at instant speed. It just about ends the game in one turn, since anything you have stays and no one will have blockers. Given the play at the end of your opponent's turn, you'll have all your mana, won't have to rebuild, and can very likely kill multiple people given the turn to mana available ratio... more mana usually means that people have taken damage from one source or another, which can make it easy to do more with less.

Cyclonic Rift is an instant speed, unconditional, one sided board reset that just about invalidates all the efforts that your opponents have made up until that point. It's an "oh shit" button that's all too easy to jam into any deck running Blue and it's played far too often.

When cards are ubiquitous for their easy of use and near "snap include" status in any deck that can run it, and ability to cause a ton of advantage/disadvantage by itself, it's usually something that should be considered for banning. (ex. Primeval Titan)

TL;DR
Not fun to play against = check
Played too often = check
Non-restrictive casting cost = check
Slows down the game if not used to win = check
Unconditional, one sided board reset = check

Cyclonic Rift should be at least considered by the Rules Committee for banning for those reasons


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-17 10:22 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Cyclonic Rift however has no such restrictions. It has the easiest boardwipe casting cost of anything anyone has mentioned, is a completely one sided board reset minus lands and can be played at instant speed. It just about ends the game in one turn, since anything you have stays and no one will have blockers. Given the play at the end of your opponent's turn, you'll have all your mana, won't have to rebuild, and can very likely kill multiple people given the turn to mana available ratio... more mana usually means that people have taken damage from one source or another, which can make it easy to do more with less.


All the boardwipes mentioned have a cost that is just as easily used. Multiple other options are even instant for 7 just like it. Is two white on a 7 cost spell really even relevant? It's not two white on a two cost spell. By seven mana your colors are fixed or your mana base is complete garbage.

Ok. Your board is empty, you rift. Now end the game in one turn. Wait you mean you have to actually have a board presence to gain any advantage from the tempo gain? Kinda like you have to have a board presence to capitalize on a Craterhoof or the table needs one to maximize an Insurrection.

Not fun to play against = check (Opinion)
Played too often = check (Maybe in your meta)
Non-restrictive casting cost = check (Requires blue... certainly not a consideration for banning either way)
Slows down the game if not used to win = check (as opposed to an Armageddon or Wrath that actually removes things, not even close)
Unconditional, one sided board reset = check (It's honestly come up more than once that I'd wish I could target my own stuff with it. But I can't. I guess it is conditional...)

There's a huge difference between this and Prophet. Prophet takes a broken color pair and gave it steroids. "You have to have draw and creatures to do anything with it" That's EXACTLY what G/U does. It made every deck in those colors better. Rift is a solid removal spell but it's definitely not an auto include or even the best of the best. Trying to compare the two is ludicrous. Rift isn't even good enough to see play in more competitive builds.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-18 11:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
Not fun to play against = check (Opinion)
Played too often = check (Maybe in your meta)
Non-restrictive casting cost = check (Requires blue... certainly not a consideration for banning either way)
Slows down the game if not used to win = check (as opposed to an Armageddon or Wrath that actually removes things, not even close)
Unconditional, one sided board reset = check (It's honestly come up more than once that I'd wish I could target my own stuff with it. But I can't. I guess it is conditional...)

There's a huge difference between this and Prophet. Prophet takes a broken color pair and gave it steroids. "You have to have draw and creatures to do anything with it" That's EXACTLY what G/U does. It made every deck in those colors better. Rift is a solid removal spell but it's definitely not an auto include or even the best of the best. Trying to compare the two is ludicrous. Rift isn't even good enough to see play in more competitive builds.


* Find me one person who likes having all their non-land permanents bounced to hand while their opponent gets to keep everything.
* I have 3 metas, including 2 groups outside of a LGS and one at, pretty much every deck that runs blue runs it. (easily 80+ decks total)
* Unrestrictive in that it only requires 1 blue, which can make it easier for multicolor decks to play it and have counter magic to back it up as opposed to it being something like a 3 blue and 4 generic, which would make something like counterspell very difficult in 2 color, and near impossible in 3+ color (at turn 7 w/out artifacts)
* I have never and will never condone things like worldfire/decree of annihilation/etc. Wrath of God actually leaves enchantments, artifacts and lands. Armageddon leaves everything but lands and forces people to make due with what's already out. Slows the game down, but not as bad as CR does. Being able to cast them again isn't equitable when an entire game is made irrelevant while one person got to keep everything and everyone else very likely has to discard.
* At least we agree that it's one-sided. Rare are the instances when you'd want to bounce your stuff too (minus a response to a wrath effect)


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-19 12:54 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
* Find me one person who likes having all their non-land permanents bounced to hand while their opponent gets to keep everything.

There's a difference between "fun to play against" and "liking all your non-land permanents bounced". Equating the two doesn't further the discussion.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
* I have 3 metas, including 2 groups outside of a LGS and one at, pretty much every deck that runs blue runs it. (easily 80+ decks total)

Compare with what is in my local group -- only one or two decks run it. So, the statement of it being meta-specific still holds.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
* ... Armageddon leaves everything but lands and forces people to make due with what's already out. Slows the game down, but not as bad as CR does.

That's opinion. In my opinion, removing the lands slows the game down a factor or two above what CR can do.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-20 9:44 am 
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Ban every card that isn't Grizzly Bear, none of them are fun to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-20 11:46 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Barbary Apes and Balduvian Bear can get oppressive if not responsibly piloted.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-20 11:51 am 

Joined: 2016-Apr-20 11:09 am
Age: Egg
Short answer: were I on the rules committee I'd have a nearly impossible time justifying/rationalizing a ban for Cyclonic Rift. It isn't, imo, banworthy.

And were it banned I'd be delighted.

Longer response: It's one of those rare cards that feels too strong to NOT must mindless run in every single deck that legally allows it. There's very few cards you can say that about. Sol Ring maybe? And even then I've seen anti-artifact decks that don't run it (though in the end that's probably mostly stubbornness because the'd probably still be stronger with it). I've built U/x decks without countermagic and not missed it, I don't feel that every deck I make needs a Top even though I have them to spare, etc. Every time I've intentionally not put Rift in a deck though I've found myself immediately wishing I had access to Rift. You have to decide if you want to run Aetherspouts or Aetherize; you just run Rift, full stop.

One thing people also forget is how versatile the non-overload option is. There's a lot of bombs in EDH, but a lot of those bombs can be dead cards in the wrong situation. Cyclonic Rift is a game-winning bomb that can also double as a oh-my-god-gotta-deal-with-that-now bounce for two mana. Insurrection isn't going to save you on turn five with two mana free, and where as I've seen Rift do that multiple times.

Last, it's easy. Not that say Tooth and Nail is hard or anything, but you actually need to have combo pieces to auto-win with it. Rift you just draw it and regardless of anything beyond that you probably win.

Again though, all that said, I'd have a though time justifying banning it.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-21 2:36 am 

Joined: 2011-Jul-15 6:33 pm
Age: Drake
I was thinking that instead of talking about concepts like "slows the game down" or "non-restrictive casting cost", let's look at the actual philosophy document for the format, while trying to keep an open mind:

* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. Some cards produce the kinds of games we’d like to avoid and we see them as creating a negative experience for a majority of the player base. They tend to be anticlimactic wins out of nowhere, unexpected combos that end an otherwise enjoyable game, or creating situations which completely take play of the game away from the other players. This does include some cards that have a casting cost far too low for their effect, or whose abilities simply break the format at any cost.

This seems to be what ban cards like Worldfire, Biorhythm, Protean Hulk, and Coalition Victory. These cards all end games by themselves regardless of the board state. Other banned cards, like Braids, Cabal Minion and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant effectively end games by halting opponent's ability to participate in the game.

On the other hand, Cyclonic Rift isn't like that. If you want to win when that resolves, you need to have a halfway decent board state, or at least have managed to get in a few times before then. If the card is just allowing you to swing in for lethal damage, then it's no more banworthy than Bedlam. You may say it doesn't allow you to participate, but not in the same way. Getting board wiped does not mean your game is over. Your choices can affect the future of the game, unlike someone who is subject to an opponent's flipped Erayo. You can draw into later solutions, and in this specific case, you are allowed to recast your board.

* Warps The Format Strategically. Commander decks are about variety, and if a strategy becomes sufficiently omnipresent that the games become very similar even across different playgroups, we may need to try to rein in the presence of that deck.

This one is a bit more nebulous, so I admit I don't really have it nailed down. It seems to be what bans cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Primeval Titan. Has Commander become a 'race for Cyclonic Rift' in the same way it was a 'race for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn'? No. It is a card whose power depends on your opponent having permanents; racing to cast it as fast as possible doesn't do anything. For lack of a better word, it is 'defensive.' Even if it is present in every blue deck, ubiquity isn't enough to ban a card. It needs to be seriously affecting strategies, and I don't believe "not overextending when my opponent has seven mana untapped" counts.

* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format about epic plays, but the Turn 10 epic play happening on Turn 3 is deflating. Limited acceleration is good, but we don’t want the format to turn into “Who can go off earliest,” so we rein in large quantities of early mana.

Not relevant. It is unlikely this card can be used to generate mana for the caster without help from their opponent. (Though now I wonder if it is possible.)

* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. Magic is not designed with Commander in mind, and the different rules, especially the presence of the Commander in the Command Zone can create degenerate or unfortunate situations.

Not relevant, especially now that the hand is an included zone for the commander zone replacement effect.

* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Because it’s a non-competitive format, we don’t want players to feel as though they need to spend a great deal of money to be able to play. It is not sufficient for a card to simply be expensive - expected ubiquity and the availability of suitable replacements are also considered. This rule is mostly invoked for cards fifteen or more years out of print and is unlikely to impact the list further.

Not relevant. The card is new enough to not be scarce.

So, by my reading, they don't believe there is cause to ban it, which probably why they haven't.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-21 3:59 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Magnetic North wrote:
I was thinking that instead of talking about concepts like "slows the game down" or "non-restrictive casting cost", let's look at the actual philosophy document for the format, while trying to keep an open mind:

* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. Some cards produce the kinds of games we’d like to avoid and we see them as creating a negative experience for a majority of the player base. They tend to be anticlimactic wins out of nowhere, unexpected combos that end an otherwise enjoyable game, or creating situations which completely take play of the game away from the other players. This does include some cards that have a casting cost far too low for their effect, or whose abilities simply break the format at any cost.

This seems to be what ban cards like Worldfire, Biorhythm, Protean Hulk, and Coalition Victory. These cards all end games by themselves regardless of the board state. Other banned cards, like Braids, Cabal Minion and Erayo, Soratami Ascendant effectively end games by halting opponent's ability to participate in the game.

On the other hand, Cyclonic Rift isn't like that. If you want to win when that resolves, you need to have a halfway decent board state, or at least have managed to get in a few times before then. If the card is just allowing you to swing in for lethal damage, then it's no more banworthy than Bedlam. You may say it doesn't allow you to participate, but not in the same way. Getting board wiped does not mean your game is over. Your choices can affect the future of the game, unlike someone who is subject to an opponent's flipped Erayo. You can draw into later solutions, and in this specific case, you are allowed to recast your board.

* Warps The Format Strategically. Commander decks are about variety, and if a strategy becomes sufficiently omnipresent that the games become very similar even across different playgroups, we may need to try to rein in the presence of that deck.

This one is a bit more nebulous, so I admit I don't really have it nailed down. It seems to be what bans cards like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Primeval Titan. Has Commander become a 'race for Cyclonic Rift' in the same way it was a 'race for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn'? No. It is a card whose power depends on your opponent having permanents; racing to cast it as fast as possible doesn't do anything. For lack of a better word, it is 'defensive.' Even if it is present in every blue deck, ubiquity isn't enough to ban a card. It needs to be seriously affecting strategies, and I don't believe "not overextending when my opponent has seven mana untapped" counts.

* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. Commander is a format about epic plays, but the Turn 10 epic play happening on Turn 3 is deflating. Limited acceleration is good, but we don’t want the format to turn into “Who can go off earliest,” so we rein in large quantities of early mana.

Not relevant. It is unlikely this card can be used to generate mana for the caster without help from their opponent. (Though now I wonder if it is possible.)

* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. Magic is not designed with Commander in mind, and the different rules, especially the presence of the Commander in the Command Zone can create degenerate or unfortunate situations.

Not relevant, especially now that the hand is an included zone for the commander zone replacement effect.

* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. Because it’s a non-competitive format, we don’t want players to feel as though they need to spend a great deal of money to be able to play. It is not sufficient for a card to simply be expensive - expected ubiquity and the availability of suitable replacements are also considered. This rule is mostly invoked for cards fifteen or more years out of print and is unlikely to impact the list further.

Not relevant. The card is new enough to not be scarce.

So, by my reading, they don't believe there is cause to ban it, which probably why they haven't.


And yet Prophet of Kruphix got the banhammer. Which of those reasons did it meet?

Creates undesirable game situations? Seedborn Muse is still a card, and able to be played in more decks. Flash is relevant, but Muse lets you untap everything. Prophet and Muse also require a hand of things to play to make use of things like flash. And you still need other cards to abuse or use as an outlet. If Prophet can get banned for being able to easily take advantage of the creatures you have in play/hand, Rift can also get banned for being able to easily take advantage of the aftermath of resolution by swinging in with whatever you have, completely unhindered.

Warps the format strategically? Every deck that could run it was made better for it, but I've never seen or heard of it being that oppressive as to be a race to get it out on the field. That might just be personal experience, but there are plenty of eye-roll inducing cards or combos, least of which not withstanding Narset, Enlightened Master, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Meren of Clan Tel Noth, Omniscience + Enter the Infinite, Triskelion + Mikaeus the Unhallowed, Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood, Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void, etc.

Produces too much mana too quickly? Maybe, but again, needs an outlet or creatures to make the flash/untap of creatures/lands relevant.

Interacts badly with the structure of commander? Nope, doesn't do more than let you cast your commander with flash from the command zone. Something Vedalken Orrery, Teferi and Leyline of Anticipation already do. and there are more cards being printed now that give more of a benefit for each player's upkeep and not just the active player.

Ex.
Each Player's Upkeep:
Each Opponent's Upkeep

Creates a perceived high barrier for entry? It was printed twice and was $3 at most

I'm well aware of house rules and such, but this is more of a debate on principle.


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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-21 9:35 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
Prophet of Kruphix:

This was challenging. Prophet is not a traditionally obvious problem card for Commander, so we chose to take a conservative approach and see if casual groups could adapt. In the past, we've seen unpopular cards generate a lot of outcry, but be handled reasonably well. Powerful cards existing is OK and exploring them responsibly is an essential part of Commander.

This didn't happen with Prophet. Casual groups haven't been able to work around it and problematic play has not dropped off in hoped-for ways. Instead, the primary approach has been to steal it, clone it, run it yourself, or get run over. Ultimately, it seems the card is too perfect - it does everything U/G Commander players want to be doing and it does it in a way that makes counterplay difficult. With traditional boogeymen such as Consecrated Sphinx, you're forced to expend a lot of your mana to cast it and will have a challenge protecting it as the turn goes around the table. With Prophet, it has virtual protection built in, negating that disadvantage almost immediately.

Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa. That's centralizing in ways we can't ignore, so it's time for Prophet to take a break.


I'd go with "Warps the format strategically"

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-22 3:24 am 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Quote:
Prophet of Kruphix: (etc.)


I'd go with "Warps the format strategically"

This. There were so many situations where someone's 'yard was full of titans, praetors, hellkites, and angels, and the best play to reanimate was prophet. I'd seen players throw a bribery and pass over Avacyns and Eldrazi to snab a prophet. If you had a clone in your hand, the best play was usually to cook it for a prophet. Everyone had to have one, and if you didn't, then whoever did just killed you.

Probably my most memorable game with the card was a three player game with two of my friends. I had Marchesa, other two had Maelstrom Wanderer and Wort the Raidmother. MW drops a prophet, I immediately clone it, and Wort gets left in the dust. We proceed to essentially play the game without him until he dies. After the game, however, he revealed his hand to us: he had the wincon, in this case multiple X-cost burn spells. The problem? He needed to resolve a Mana Geyser to get enough for lethal, which he couldn't do because of the prophet. So he just sat there for seven turns with the wincon staring him in the face until he died.

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 Post subject: Re: Curious as to what people think of Rift
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-22 5:59 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Interacts badly with the structure of commander? Nope, doesn't do more than let you cast your commander with flash from the command zone. Something Vedalken Orrery, Teferi and Leyline of Anticipation already do. and there are more cards being printed now that give more of a benefit for each player's upkeep and not just the active player.

Those do not also untap and effectively 'generate' mana. You can't play Orrery on turn 5 and then cast your commander next turn, unless you already had more than 4 mana for both Orrery and your commander.

Prophet is probably one of my favorite cards ever, but it's just structured in such a way that is complete fuckery in a multiplayer setting. You very nearly get to take extra turns. Even missing a draw and combat on the 'extra turns' is quite highly mitigated by the pure acceleration and how 'bomby' and 'otk' the format is. It very much interacts poorly with the structure of commander. It's well designed for multiplayer it just turned out broken af.

I played for a very long time in a meta full of UGx decks. UG, UGW, RUG, BUG all over the place, and players changing commanders went from UG/UGx to UG/UGx. Guhhh.


Last edited by Sovarius on 2016-Apr-23 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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