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 Post subject: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 3:05 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
can we please just shove this into EDH as a blanket ruling? if theres anything I'm sick to death of, more than ANY OTHER CARD OR STRATEGY, it's hurr-durr extra turn chain/infinite turns. Why? It's easy, theres little reason NOT to play time spells in blue because they're so unbalanced for multiplayer and obscenely powerful and so easily chained and recurred the second you add red or green.

If there were any major rules change to happen in the near future, this is absolutely my top wish. Extra turns are good for nothing except boring the hell out of everyone who isn't the one taking them, its uninteractive and counterintuitive to the nature of the format to allow extra turns.

Response to the inevitable string of "derp a herp run Stranglehold" -

one card of 100
can only tutor for it easily by adding white or black
by the time you see it, it's usually too late because decks that run time spells also run green for ramp and recursion and oh yeah, ENCHANTMENT HATE
blue green vs. red, bounce it counter it blow it up, dont give a crap

The Value of an Extra Turn Spell:

Time Warp (3UU)

Untap all your permanents (4-5 mana, Rude Awakening, Seedborn Muse, Turnabout)
Extra Upkeep (3 mana, Paradox Haze)
Extra Combat & Main Phases (4-5 Mana, Relentless Assault, World At War, Waves of Aggression)
Draw a Card (1-2 Mana)

So for 5 mana we're casting a spell that actually duplicates the effects of other cards wth a total cost between 12-15 mana, which would mean Time Stretch, a 10 mana spell is somewhere in the ballpark of 24-30 mana worth of effects.

Time spells are dumb.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 3:53 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
If you'll allow me to put on my pastel sweater vest... The golden rule of Commander is adjusting the rules of Commander through open and honest discussions with your local play group. Have you told your play group how extra turn cards make you feel? Perhaps they could use this as an opportunity to share their feelings on cards others win with. What's most important is that nobody is made to feel like they have to adjust their own decks to another deck's strategy. Use house rules to adjust the other decks. Perhaps Jimmy's crazy ramp deck feels bad with all those board wipes going around. You might see your deck being weakened. I see an opportunity for compromise. Hand shakes and hugs will make for better games in the long run than pent up feelings of ill-will towards the more effective Magic cards out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 4:27 am 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-28 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Seattle
Run Stranglehold duh.

Or like the fellow above me said, just sit down with the people you play with, explain how much you hate extra turns and ask them to work with you to create a more enjoyable EDH experience for all involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 4:59 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This is a format built on 2+ for 1's. My wrath of god killed 10 creatures. That's removing 47 mana worth of value for 4 mana! Ban Wrath of God?

Play Stranglehold, and Ugin's Nexus. ...or Willbender the extra turn spell to yourself. I've had someone Force of Will their own Time Stretch because of that.

It's your meta. Discuss your disdain for the cards with them or play easily included cards to combat the effects you don't like.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 5:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Time spells are dumb, but they aren't unbeatable.

Run instant speed graveyard hate.
Counterspells
Redirection copy effects
etc.

OR... this is the best one...

Talk to the player who is using these spells abusively.

That being said, I do like the idea of a targeted skip turn spell. We played a few games with my friend's power but decided that time walk was "Target player skips his or her next turn." It was fantastic. I dunno if two mana is right, but I loved the effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 6:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I mean, you whine this much.

But then i consider it, and in all the places and metas i've played in over the last 2, i've never once had infinite turns be a (real) problem at all.

There was one guy who played Narset combat steps/turns and thought it was funny. No one else did and i scolded him and he basically backed off it. I think i played it against it only twice.

In my current meta there is one who can combo with it infinitely but i haven't seen him do it yet (but i only see the deck in tournament play).

Gath Immortal wrote:
can we please just shove this into EDH as a blanket ruling?

That's dumb, it'd just be easier to ban a couple of the best ones if it were a real problem. You already know the only real rules changes are for flavor or supporting function of the commander anyway. There are a lot of ways to interact with it before it goes infinite.

Gath Immortal wrote:
The Value of an Extra Turn Spell:

This is all really terrible math, because half of your list are enchantments that give the effect over and over, and (nitpicking here) for 1 mana you get card draw and card selection, so it's hardly 1-2 mana but more like .5. Is the extra combat in a blue deck against probably 3 other players the same as a Relentless Assault? How relevant, really, is getting an extra upkeep anyway?

tl;dr - time spells are super powerful but hardly as powerful as you try to math them out to be.

offtopic: i'm still hoping to break Magosi in some big way


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 6:28 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:

offtopic: i'm still hoping to break Magosi in some big way


original garruk + rings of brighthearth, done...

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 4:34 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-28 10:55 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've never had a problem with this.

Because when someone breaks out that Dralnu, Lich Lord deck packing Capture of Jingzhou, I let him finish, give him a round of applause for originality, then tell him I don't want to play against that deck again.

Players who are aiming to play interactive games with their opponents have no trouble "nerfing" themselves out of using these spells, even when they're in blue. Blue is powerful enough without breaking the symmetry of the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-19 6:49 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Sovarius wrote:

offtopic: i'm still hoping to break Magosi in some big way


original garruk + rings of brighthearth, done...

Okay, now i know what to break out if i ever play you.

No but really, might pop in a couple time walk effects in a deck and see what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-20 9:22 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
I can tolerate extra turns when they aren't being recurred, copied, or chained. No one I regularly play with uses extra turns to that extent so I don't care if extra turns are banned or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-21 11:12 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Simply answer... "Play it out" Then pull out your phone and wait for them to kill you. Dont scoop, dont concede, pay just barely enough attention to keep the game moving.

Once they're done with solitaire they will see how thrilling that was and probably move on. Maybe throw in a sly "let me know when you've finished playing with yourself."

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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 4:49 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think you should just flavor-errata Time Ebb to be an enchantment that says "whenever a player would take an extra turn, that player skips his or her next turn instead."

PROBLEM SOLVED.

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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 5:42 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
My old group used to see time walk effects a lot --- then we started seeing a lot of Wild Ricochet showing up and beating the crap out of time walk effects ... and the walk effects just kinda wandered off so that we rarely see them.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 6:11 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Simply answer... "Play it out" Then pull out your phone and wait for them to kill you. Dont scoop, dont concede, pay just barely enough attention to keep the game moving.

Once they're done with solitaire they will see how thrilling that was and probably move on. Maybe throw in a sly "let me know when you've finished playing with yourself."


we've done this shit for years, it doesn't make a difference

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 7:22 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Simply answer... "Play it out" Then pull out your phone and wait for them to kill you. Dont scoop, dont concede, pay just barely enough attention to keep the game moving.

Once they're done with solitaire they will see how thrilling that was and probably move on. Maybe throw in a sly "let me know when you've finished playing with yourself."


we've done this shit for years, it doesn't make a difference


Can I suggest finding new friends, if they like playing with themselves that much they're probably wankers. :mrgreen:

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