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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-22 6:18 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Why not have Stranglehold + Havoc Festival become a constant board state for your players? It would stop all the annoying interactions like extra turns, tutors and life gain mechanics that can be abused.

In fact even better how about no more other lands except for swamp and you can only have one creature as your non land cards Shadowborn Apostle and everyone's' commander would be Grandmother Sengir. I guess then the commander would be over powered to be able to kill a creature for two mana and tapping it. Then you can make a new forum complaining about how kill abilities are annoying for the format and we should make a new rule that erases the effect comply or instead kills the commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 5:02 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
Why not have Stranglehold + Havoc Festival become a constant board state for your players? It would stop all the annoying interactions like extra turns, tutors and life gain mechanics that can be abused.

Because one has the serious potential to make games miserable and the other basically guarantees it? If you can't fight something miserable (extra turns) without making things just as miserable with your "cure", that's a problem.

Extra turns are an obnoxious blight on multiplayer formats, and have been since multiplayer has existed. When I first started playing commander, extra turns were uncommon because there simply weren't very many cards that did had the effect, and quite a few of the good ones were banned or obscure portal cards nobody owned.
Now, WoTC seems to print a new one in every block. You have to go back to Scars of Mirrodin block in 2010 before you find a block that didn't have at least one new extra turn effect.
Extra Turns are fun sucks, and the more of them there are the worse it gets. WoTC isn't going to stop printing them, because they're perfectly fair in duels. Unfortunately, I have no idea what can be done. I (and most people) hate format specific errata, and adding a dozen cards to the banned list (plus more in the future) is also a abyssal "solution."

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 5:08 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
Now, WoTC seems to print a new one in every block. You have to go back to Scars of Mirrodin block in 2010 before you find a block that didn't have at least one new extra turn effect.

Sure, but some of those you have to jump through some to a lot of hoops to get it to work. Those ones usually aren't the problem here.

As a house-rule, I'd suggest trying something like: "If you would gain an extra turn during an extra turn, you don't gain that extra turn instead." Lets them still be useful, but prevents chaining & continuous recursion of them.

Or, just metagame against them and try to hate them out of your playgroup.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Island of Wak-Wak the Aeons
Land
T: End the turn. Active this ability only during your turn or an additional turn. Island of Wak-Wak the Aeons doesn't untap during the next turn's untap step.

Island of Wak-Wak the Aeons untaps during the untap step of additional turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:21 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-30 11:37 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
As a house-rule, I'd suggest trying something like: "If you would gain an extra turn during an extra turn, you don't gain that extra turn instead." Lets them still be useful, but prevents chaining & continuous recursion of them.


Timesifter is pretty goofy under this rule. "Every other turn, let's all exile a card off the top for no reason (and possibly more cards for a tiebreak)! Think of it as a dress rehearsal for next turn, when it really counts."


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
SadisticMystic wrote:
Timesifter is pretty goofy under this rule. "Every other turn, let's all exile a card off the top for no reason (and possibly more cards for a tiebreak)! Think of it as a dress rehearsal for next turn, when it really counts."

I love timesifter. Made a (60 card) deck around it once.

I found out people are fine with one timesifter in play. Add a second and everyone kills you just to simplify their play experience :D


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Sure, but some of those you have to jump through some to a lot of hoops to get it to work.


Not really true. Part the Waterveil, Temporal Trepass, and Temporal Mastery require no hoops at all. If they resolve, you get an extra turn. Simple as that. Medomai requires an attack phase, which isn't really much of a hoop. And to make up for the small inconvenience, it's repeatable. So 4 out of the last 5 blocks have a no (or minimal) hoops time walk. And the 5th has Ral Zarek, which is a fair card by itself that becomes very groanworthy when paired with Doubling Season. (Which is the only circumstance anyone seems to play him in anyway.)

If you go back further then that, you do indeed start hitting cards with lots of hoops, but for the last 5 years? Not so much. (Don't get me wrong.... they still exist, they're just in addition to the no hoops ones.)

crokaycete wrote:
Island of Wak-Wak the Aeons

They should seriously print something very similar to that. Either in conspiracy 2.0, or in Commander 2016.

Timewatch Citadel
Land
T: Add {C} to your mana pool.
T: End the turn. Activate this ability only during an extra turn.

or

Timehaven Seal 1G
Artifact
Flash
When Timehaven Seal enters the battlefield, draw a card.
Players can't take extra turns.
If a permanent would become untapped except during it's controller's untap step, that permanent remains tapped instead.

Now those would be good hate for extra turns.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


Last edited by kaldare on 2016-Feb-23 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:46 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
If you go back further then that, you do indeed start hitting cards with lots of hoops, but for the last 5 years? Not so much.

Ohhh see, I was looking at cards like Search the City. For some reason I mentally skipped over Ral Zarek.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 6:50 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Ohhh see, I was looking at cards like Search the City. For some reason I mentally skipped over Ral Zarek.

Yes... if someone get an extra turn off of Search the City, they DESERVE that extra turn. I can't argue that. :)

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-23 9:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Carthain wrote:
I love timesifter. Made a (60 card) deck around it once.

Timesifter was the beginning of the end of 60 card multiplayer / casual for me.

I had a 'fun' deck that did the Mycosynth Golem / Emblazoned Golem thing, used Clock of Omens and Howling Mine to untap five colours of artifact lands, and it was even-more-greedy than that, jamming Composite Golem and Bringers, with Arcbound Reclaimer to eventually stack the Timesifter exiles.

In other words, it was a terrible deck that did nothing until about turn 5, then needed to still be left alone for 2-3 turns more, then generally took all the turns, drew all the cards, etc.

_________________
"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-25 5:48 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
Bull wrote:
Why not have Stranglehold + Havoc Festival become a constant board state for your players? It would stop all the annoying interactions like extra turns, tutors and life gain mechanics that can be abused.

Because one has the serious potential to make games miserable and the other basically guarantees it? If you can't fight something miserable (extra turns) without making things just as miserable with your "cure", that's a problem.

Extra turns are an obnoxious blight on multiplayer formats, and have been since multiplayer has existed. When I first started playing commander, extra turns were uncommon because there simply weren't very many cards that did had the effect, and quite a few of the good ones were banned or obscure portal cards nobody owned.
Now, WoTC seems to print a new one in every block. You have to go back to Scars of Mirrodin block in 2010 before you find a block that didn't have at least one new extra turn effect.
Extra Turns are fun sucks, and the more of them there are the worse it gets. WoTC isn't going to stop printing them, because they're perfectly fair in duels. Unfortunately, I have no idea what can be done. I (and most people) hate format specific errata, and adding a dozen cards to the banned list (plus more in the future) is also a abyssal "solution."

would it have to every time walk variant? what about just the portal/starter ones, walk the aeons because buyback, trespass because delve, and stretch cause 2.

i dont personally see the need for a ban but those 6 seem more reasonable than saying theres a need to ban 12 plus all future ones. all the ones i mentioned are the probably the most powerful, unless someone thinks the final fortune triplets are op, and everything left requires some hoops or exiles itself.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-25 8:12 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
It seems that people here aren't really pissed off at extra turns but rather control mechanics as a general. You can have a similar situation with winter orb and the owner having a quick bounce effect to keep everyone else watching him play.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-25 8:28 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Rewinding Clock 1
Artifact
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if this turn is an extra turn, tap all permanents that player controls.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-26 12:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
It seems that people here aren't really pissed off at extra turns but rather control mechanics as a general. You can have a similar situation with winter orb and the owner having a quick bounce effect to keep everyone else watching him play.

Those are prison mechanics, not control mechanics. Big, big difference.
Control mechanic interact with what your opponents do and ruin their plans. Prison mechanics prevent people from doing things to begin with.

crokaycete wrote:
Rewinding Clock 1
Artifact
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if this turn is an extra turn, tap all permanents that player controls.

Seems iffy. Possibly not good enough, and also kinda worrying with Timesifter existing. (Which makes all turns while it's active "extra" turns.)

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Players Cannot Take Extra Turns.
AgePosted: 2016-Feb-26 1:24 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What about a land that taps for colorless and says "At the beginning of each player's turn, if it was that player's turn last, that player skips his/her untap step"?


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