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 Post subject: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-16 6:15 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-27 9:46 am
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Hi guys, i just have curiosity about the rules for use ( or arguments for can't use) a flip card like Westvale Abbey | Ormendahl, Profane Prince as commander.
Should this be possible?
Why yes? why not?
Exist a rule for solve this? or we'll need check some new rules for the new cards?


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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-17 11:49 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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Location: Midgard
Just like with Elbrus, the Binding Blade, a rule to make this work is just too complicated. So there isn't a rule to attempt to make this work. Furthermore, Westvale Abbey isn't even a legendary land.

If you want to use this card as a commander, I suggest speaking to your play group and asking if they think it is alright for you to use it this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-18 4:17 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
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Location: Xenia, OH, USA
For a card to be eligible as a commander, it must be a legendary creature in it's casting state. That means cards that are cast as an artifact, or regular (non-legendary) creature but can immediately turn legendary upon entering the battlefield do not qualify. Cards that are legendary creatures in their cast state but change upon entering the battlefield (Theros Gods, Rune-Tail, etc.) do qualify.

Basically, since lands cannot be cast, it isn't a valid commander. If a spell is not a Legendary Creature on the stack, it is not eligible.

That's not to say that you can't house rule a particular card as being commander, like the Nephilim, Elbrus, Or Westvale Abbey.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-19 4:42 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
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The biggest problem with making this card a commander, assuming a house rule that allows it, is that unlike Elbrus, the Binding Blade, Westvale Abbey is a land card and that means that players will keep hands that they otherwise couldn't because they know that they always have a land in the command zone that they can play.

That changes things quite a bit in how you build your deck and what hands you keep without taking a mulligan.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-19 5:15 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Land in the command zone should not change number of keepable hands that much relative to spell in the command zone given good deck-building choices. (But most people are cartoonishly greedy on their land counts, so you are probably right in practice.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-19 6:33 pm 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
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Location: Acworth, GA
A land for a commander technically ignores commander tax, since lands are not cast, but if you are house ruling to use it in the first place, you can house rule that for fairness sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-19 6:37 pm 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
IMO, definitely Not OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-20 1:29 am 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
Yeah, if this was in my playgroup, I'd probably have some reservations. I'm sure you could get it to work eventually, but I don't think it would be worth the effort.

Maybe if it was one of those janky lands like Safe Haven which don't produce mana...

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-23 4:29 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Buthrakaur wrote:
A land for a commander technically ignores commander tax, since lands are not cast, but if you are house ruling to use it in the first place, you can house rule that for fairness sake.

you tax the transform ability by 2 mana.



All said, I think its fine as a commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-24 2:32 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
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My gut says to apply tax to the act of playing the land, as that's the closest analogue to casting the card from the CZ.

Any compelling reasons for/against the tax applying to the transform ability vs playing it as a land?

Agree with niheloim, as long as the tax comes into play somewhere it seems fair (read: not totally broken) as a Commander.

Sadly, there's the flavour fail of a land that produces B/W tokens but is mono-black colour identity, but that's hardly a statement of how fair the card is or isn't.

Might change my mind if it also gets house ruled a B/W colour identity.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-25 6:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't really see the need for the tax. It eats your land drop and can't even get transformed unless you have 5 other creatures sitting around waiting.

I would allow it as a B or W/B CI General, but I am pretty easy going unless you start using my generosity to play broken crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-May-05 2:47 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As already stated, ormey cannot legally be used as a commander normally.

If I were to house rule him, I would require the commander tax be applied every time he was played after the first. This is because a dedicated token deck would be able to provide the 5 creatures required fairly easily, the commander tax is designed to keep commanders in line over the long term.

Furthermore it would need to be a mono-black deck as the colour indicator of ormendahl is black.

These are the things I would personally require from you if you sat down to play against me, obviously others would be different. If you built the deck you should have a decent monoblack legendary creature that you could swap in if people object to the profane prince.

Something like Black Mikaeus would be good, as it works with a general sacrificing theme and is annoying enough that people will want you to play the land instead. Ghoulcaller Gisa, is another one that's good for a token strat.

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 12:16 pm 
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To be honest he isnt worth being a commander though he would fit in with any black white commander deck. Griselbrand would be more worthwile as a commander since his ability is a draw function

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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 12:46 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
RaiRai wrote:
To be honest he isnt worth being a commander though he would fit in with any black white commander deck. Griselbrand would be more worthwile as a commander since his ability is a draw function

Griselbrand is super banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Ormendahl, Profane Prince commander?
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 1:41 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
Griselbrand is super banned.
And if he could be ultra banned, he would be.

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