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 Post subject: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 6:16 am 

Joined: 2016-Apr-27 5:22 am
Age: Hatchling
Greetings Fellow EDH enthusiasts!

I was hoping to start a discussion of New-zilek (couldn't resist typing that), and get a feel for other players' opinions on him. Quite frankly, I do hope to find Kozi on the ban-list one day.

Kozi can be.....quite oppressive when he/she/it hits the board. My playgroup has discovered that discarding a card with the same CMC to counter a spell is alot easier than it seems with the correct deck building. Discarding a land to counter Pact of Negation is quite something to see as well.

This, plus the fact that they refill there hand on cast, makes him insanely difficult to get rid of. In discussion with friends, the consensus has been that there is no reliable way to deal with him other then.....

1) Don't have Kozi be the commander / Don't let anyone use Kozi as a there commander.
2) Don't let Kozi resolve.
3) Don't let the player ever be able to cast Kozi.
4) Everyone targets Kozi when it hits the field till something sticks.
5) Get Lucky when trying to kill Kozi.
6) Play spells Kozi can't counter.

And honestly, none of these are really an answer. They just say "No. You don't get to play your commander."

Again, I am really curious to here from/discuss-with others on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 8:37 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've never seen him be an issue... in my experience you won't have the correct CMC for this format. At least not enough to lock down the game... It's definitely not a lock like you see in legacy miracles.

Can't be any more difficult to deal with than any other permission deck and he's colorless so he's far more limited in what he can actually counter.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 8:39 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-14 9:53 am
Age: Wyvern
Pinpoint removal can cost 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and sometimes more. Board sweepers range from 4-9 mana. Vary your removal so the Kozilek player can't just deckbuild for "2-mana kill spell" and "4-mana wrath". There are plenty of ways to kill/exile Kozilek 2.0, even if you have to throw a couple of things at him until one sticks.

Use cards that cause him to "lose all abilities" or make it so his activated abilities can't be activated. Darksteel Mutation, Lignify or Song of the Dryads make a Kozilek look pretty lame. Martial Law comes down earlier than Kozilek does, and its triggered Detain ability can't be countered by Kozilek. Use Stifle effects to counter his activated ability.

Counterspells deal with him effectively (they can't be countered by his ability while he's still on the stack). If artifact mana is being used to ramp him out, destroy those artifacts before he can be cast. Same with mana dorks.

If he's only a problem when used as a commander, then talk to your playgroup and decide what sort of games you're really looking to play. Maybe the solution is to ban him as a commander in your playgroup. But I'd look at other solutions such as those I suggested above before resorting to this.

Definitely not ban-worthy. At 10 mana, he takes a long time before he can be played, and you should get a good card if you've invested 10 mana into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 8:47 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ob_of_The_Veil wrote:
4) Everyone targets Kozi when it hits the field till something sticks.

When this option of dealing with a card doesn't work as an answer then you know there is a problem with the card.

When it's their general, this strategy might not work so well, but there are other things you can do, such as kill their artifacts.
Ob_of_The_Veil wrote:
And honestly, none of these are really an answer. They just say "No. You don't get to play your commander."

There are a lot of commanders that are "kill on sight"


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 11:06 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It costs 10 mana, kill them before they get to 10 mana.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 11:25 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
It costs 10 mana, kill them before they get to 10 mana.


Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Mana Crypt
Lion's Eye Diamond (Black Lotus for New Kozi)
Mox Opal
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Metalworker

etc. etc.

New kozi is remarkably easy to ramp into as a general. Not saying it's worth banning, but it's definitely really goddamn obnoxious, although to be honest new ulamog is in my experience far more oppressive as a commander.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 2:52 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If they are playing all those cards, they don't care about a good game. Thank them for the game and play someone else.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-27 2:58 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
MRHblue wrote:
If they are playing all those cards, they don't care about a good game. Stand up from the table.

Pretty much what I was thinking too. Hm, Lion's Eye Diamond plays remarkably well with this Kozilek, doesn't it?

Honestly, I'm much more concerned about a bunch of other commanders before this one. This one is rightly strong for 10 mana.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-28 1:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
If they are playing all those cards, they don't care about a good game. Thank them for the game and play someone else.


What cards are you seeing there that make you jump to "don't care about a good game"? Metalworker? I would expect to see most of those cards in any colorless commander deck that was even remotely tuned. Hell half of those end up in colored decks that want to ramp. Would you say the same thing with a few budget replacements that would slow you down by a turn or two? Would you say the same thing if there were green in the color identity cause green can do exactly what those cards do with a fraction of the monetary cost and are played without a second thought. Seems more like envy of a deep collection...


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-28 8:43 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not exactly, I opened dual lands from packs for $2.50 back in 1995. I have the collection that shows decades of collecting, its not about envy.

I said "all". If someone is playing all the mana rocks and accelerators to drop Kozi ASAP, thats my determination of 'not looking for a fun game'. YMMV.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-28 9:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
8 ramp spells/rocks doesn't scream degenerate to me... I'm pretty sure I'd have to see the rest of the deck before even considering a deck as "unfun". He costs 10 mana. I'd like to see your idea of a colorless deck that doesn't include at least as many ramp/rocks. The ability to interact in a meaningful way vs 3-6 cost commanders when yours costs 10 necessitates ramping. Even without a competitive meta you can easily die long before you hit 10 land drops.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-28 9:34 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Epsilon wrote:
8 ramp spells/rocks doesn't scream degenerate to me... I'm pretty sure I'd have to see the rest of the deck before even considering a deck as "unfun". He costs 10 mana. I'd like to see your idea of a colorless deck that doesn't include at least as many ramp/rocks. The ability to interact in a meaningful way vs 3-6 cost commanders when yours costs 10 necessitates ramping. Even without a competitive meta you can easily die long before you hit 10 land drops.

Eight ramp spells/rocks isn't degenerate...but if someone played against me and their first few turns looked like this:

Turn 1: Mana Crypt-->Sol Ring-->Metalworker
Turn 2: Activate Metal Worker, reveal Lion's Eye Diamond, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and Basalt Monolith-->cast hand-->cast Kozilek, the Great Distortion-->replenish hand

I'm probably going to feel it was pretty degenerate, and then immediately wonder why I have to sit through this game any longer. I'd have to see the deck too, but if I saw a deck containing all of these cards I'd initially be a little concerned about what the gameplay is like. Being concerned for possible degenerate plays like this isn't envy; it's just prudent.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 4:08 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Segrus wrote:
Turn 1: Mana Crypt-->Sol Ring-->Metalworker
Turn 2: Activate Metal Worker, reveal Lion's Eye Diamond, Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, and Basalt Monolith-->cast hand-->cast Kozilek, the Great Distortion-->replenish hand
Ok. Sure. If someone is playing 32 lands, 67 mana rocks, and Kozilek, they're probably going to have some strong opening hands. Then look like total morons when someone casts Temporal Isolation.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 5:11 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
He actually seems fun as hell, although i've not even seen him played once anywhere yet. He could go in my Mishra deck that IS one of those try-hard all-the-mana-rocks-decks Karn/Ugin t4 deals or 5 color control.

Between breaking up mana rocks (Vandalblast and Shattering Spree are both OP, but most of the colors in the game have ways of dealing) and having the 3 players agree "okay, let's hurt him first" it seems fine. You could definitely try some 'reveal hand' effects to know what you're dealing with as well. (Thoughtseize, Telepathy, Gitaxian probe)

Honestly though if it's that much a problem it should be no problem that this player receives a lot of early hatred.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek the Great Distortion
AgePosted: 2016-Apr-29 7:28 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
I actually built a colorless Ulamog 2.0 deck when Oath dropped, but was on the verge of breaking it apart right after I had built it. Ulamog just wasn't fun. Whenever I got him out, he would invariably get stolen or cloned from the get-go because, since he was my commander, everyone always knew I had the best clone target. On top of that, whenever he did stick around, all he ever did was focus on one player and hate them out of the game. It was dumb.

Kozilek pretty much saved the deck. Kozilek is actually a lot of fun to play with, and it adds a surprising amount of dynamic play to the table. It's so much fun playing and bluffing my way around my hand, daring players to drop some bomb that I may or may not be able to sweep off (most of the time I don't). Also since he loses indestructible but gains evasion, he is both easier to answer and a lot faster at ending games.

I also loaned the deck out to another player to play against it a few times. I actually kind of enjoyed it there too, again, because of the bluff dynamic. It almost felt like playing a board game.

One thing though, never run a Kozilek deck in a game of Vanguard Commander. Dude is fething broken with Barrin, for what it's worth.

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