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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 5:41 am 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
crokaycete wrote:
I think there is a huge grey area here. The "political" game in EDH is encouraging people to do things that they seem as good for them, but you see as good (potentially better) for you. If you end up winning the game, you could easily argue that anything they did that benefited you was "bad" for them.

How overtly bad are we talking here?


This is what I was referring to.

As bad as you can get away with. Who you play against is going to have an impact on what you can convince them to do.

Quote:
and I am still looking for a way to make mono-blue not obnoxious


I built a mono-blue deck back in January. The deck is casual so I don’t know if it would hold up in your local meta. I can post it in the decklists forum if you want.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 6:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
MatthewB wrote:
Quote:
and I am still looking for a way to make mono-blue not obnoxious

I built a mono-blue deck back in January. The deck is casual so I don’t know if it would hold up in your local meta. I can post it in the decklists forum if you want.

I'll take a look at it. I just dismantled Braids, Conjurer Adept(which seemed like such a good idea when I built it, because who doesn't like free stuff?) and am currently building Stitcher Geralf, but I'm always open to ideas. I'd love to make something around Taniwha, but I'm not sure what that would be.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 7:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
So MRHblue, does Iona cause a problem in your local metagame?
Yes. When it lands it targets the most people, not the person in the lead, FAR too often. I honestly think thats just like tuck, people went wide when they could because it seem like an epic, memorably play. It might be memorable, but for all the wrong reasons.

Iona looks like a big, fun, splashy, political, card. It just doesn't actually do fun things. My understanding of the ban list is, that's EXACTLY the sort of thing the ban list is targeted at.

niheloim wrote:
I want Iona banned, along with grindstone, so I can have painters servant back. That is all.
That won't get painters back, per RC posts in the past.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 8:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
That won't get painters back, per RC posts in the past.


This. Ugin put paid to that. Then again, it's definitely not coming off the list with Iona legal, so...

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 10:18 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Swmystery wrote:
Now, Segrus. I said I'd come back to you. I appreciate your consistency. I would not, in fact, extend the argument as far as kill spells, wraths, and counterspells, though I understand why you think I would. That's because I don't really think you can be justifiably upset by the mere fact of people playing those sorts of cards, in the way you can be with tuck and Iona. And, indeed, the way you approach those sorts of cases is rightfully different (you don't stop playing all kill spells/wraths/counterspells, you just don't play decks that overload on them).

I understand why you'd think it's a player issue that my group places the tactical power of Iona (et al), above people's fun. On further reflection, I agree with you. However, I still think that there are still inherent card issues with Iona because of how her abilities interact with the format's rules and the type of environment she often (not always, but often) encourages. especially if one thinks holding back is disrespectful to one's opponents (not that I do). The fact that my meta has a player issue with her, which I now accept, does not somehow negate the stuff that her abilities alone cause.

I was wondering when you'd say a little more for me.

Possibly. I'm of the opinion that further data--much wider data than I currently have access to--is needed to completely determine Iona's fate. If there are a lot of other groups like your group, unable to entirely self regulate her, then I can't see any reason she shouldn't be banned.

If, as my current experience is like, and the majority of groups are able to stay away from playing Iona, then there's no need to ban at this time. There's inherent problems with her, but I do believe there's a strong argument that she's fairly obviously a problem people are usually capable of avoiding. Hopefully someone will come forward with some complete data.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 6:53 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Segrus wrote:
I'm of the opinion that further data--much wider data than I currently have access to--is needed to completely determine Iona's fate. If there are a lot of other groups like your group, unable to entirely self regulate her, then I can't see any reason she shouldn't be banned.

If, as my current experience is like, and the majority of groups are able to stay away from playing Iona, then there's no need to ban at this time. There's inherent problems with her, but I do believe there's a strong argument that she's fairly obviously a problem people are usually capable of avoiding. Hopefully someone will come forward with some complete data.


Is this how banning works? Does the RC acquire 'data'? I thought they tried cards themselves in various deck types, have lengthy discussions, possibly by the fire in a cabin while sipping rich oaky Scotch, and follow discussions in various fora.

I'm not sure to which side of the infamous 18 I was counted, but I think it would be 'no ban'. This is because I believe it doesn't automatically ruin games, and I don't care all that much since we don't play it in our groups. We quickly found out you kinda have to choose blue, or a clone will land pretty soon to lock the Iona player out of white. It became a kind of 'counter everything blue' card, and got boring fast.

'Doesn't automatically ruin games' could also be said about cards like PoK... it doesn't have to be used in a degenerate manner, but it does, so often that self regulation didn't seem to be sufficient anymore. Occasionally, it helped a player who's behind to catch up again, but the vast majority of times it didn't improve a game at all.

I'm lucky I guess that I play in two more or less fixed play groups. Both have different standards on what's ok, one is very casual and would never play things like Iona, the other is more anything goes, where nothing is banned (One guy is the proud owner of a Mox Ruby, it would break his heart if he couldn't play it because we only play commander). Both groups are fun because everything is open for discussion. i don't even adjust my decks for the second group, it's enough for me to know I could be facing a Jokulhaups or Omniscience.

However, not every one has this kind of fixed groups, people who play pick up games in a LGS should be taken into account as well. So I find myself leaning more towards Swmystery's POV now, maybe sometimes we have to give up an inch of freedom for the greater good...


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-16 6:57 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Is this how banning works? Does the RC acquire 'data'? I thought they tried cards themselves in various deck types, have lengthy discussions, possibly by the fire in a cabin while sipping rich oaky Scotch, and follow discussions in various fora.


I believe Sheldon is a wine man, but this is a brilliant mental image. Not sure on the rest of the RC's drinking habits.

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Current Commanders: 7/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Ephara, God of the Polis (Azorius Men O'War)
Etrata, the Silencer (Dimir Blink)
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Mathas, Fiend Seeker (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Swmystery wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Is this how banning works? Does the RC acquire 'data'? I thought they tried cards themselves in various deck types, have lengthy discussions, possibly by the fire in a cabin while sipping rich oaky Scotch, and follow discussions in various fora.


I believe Sheldon is a wine man, but this is a brilliant mental image. Not sure on the rest of the RC's drinking habits.


I drink single malts (preferring the Islay), although I prefer (small batch) bourbon these days as my hard spirit of choice. I've gotten Scott hooked on bourbon and ginger ale (obv baseline stuff like Wild Turkey if you're going to put it with a mixer). I know Gavin drinks wine but don't know about anything else--but along with Alex, he's Canadian, so I suspect a great deal of drinkitude. Toby doesn't drink at all, which is awesome when he visits because he can be the designated driver.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:00 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
I drink single malts (preferring the Islay), although I prefer (small batch) bourbon these days as my hard spirit of choice. I've gotten Scott hooked on bourbon and ginger ale (obv baseline stuff like Wild Turkey if you're going to put it with a mixer). I know Gavin drinks wine but don't know about anything else--but along with Alex, he's Canadian, so I suspect a great deal of drinkitude. Toby doesn't drink at all, which is awesome when he visits because he can be the designated driver.

Came to see what Sheldon had to say about Iona, learned way more about the RC than I needed to know....

Also, Islay whiskeys (Bruichladdich excepted) taste like dirt. Highland (Old Pulteney is my current favourite) is where it's at ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:05 am 

Joined: 2009-Oct-08 1:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
If we were just talking about people who come here to discus things -- sure, I may agree with you. But since we need to consider all the Commander players, I certainly do not agree with that.

I'm getting back to this a little late, but: what is it about Emrakul and Prophet that makes them a good choice to ban for being self-evidently terrible, but makes Iona a bad choice?

That's basically my thing. We agree that certain types of self-evidently miserable do, paradoxically, keep a card from being banned: people notice really quick that certain types of mana-denial or lockdown or combo strategies are ghastly and tend to either dump them from their decks or get exiled from polite company. But being self-evidently miserable is not, in and of itself, enough to avoid a ban, since there seems to be strong consensus (at least now) that some cards like Em and PoK fit the bill.

So: if we all more or less agree that Iona is miserable, and largely agree that there's no legitimately fun or interesting way to play her that doesn't involve purposely holding back, and clearly some portion of people continue to run into her and think she'll be awesome and fun, what exactly is the core of the case against a ban? Is it just the default "don't ever ban anything unless we have 100% certainty it needs it"? If not, what is it that makes the affirmative case stronger here than for those other examples?


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:32 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Segrus wrote:
I'm of the opinion that further data--much wider data than I currently have access to--is needed to completely determine Iona's fate. If there are a lot of other groups like your group, unable to entirely self regulate her, then I can't see any reason she shouldn't be banned.

If, as my current experience is like, and the majority of groups are able to stay away from playing Iona, then there's no need to ban at this time. There's inherent problems with her, but I do believe there's a strong argument that she's fairly obviously a problem people are usually capable of avoiding. Hopefully someone will come forward with some complete data.


Is this how banning works? Does the RC acquire 'data'? I thought they tried cards themselves in various deck types, have lengthy discussions, possibly by the fire in a cabin while sipping rich oaky Scotch, and follow discussions in various fora.

Well, I imagine they aren't just focused on only their local play groups and aim to get a full picture of the format by exploring a variety of forums and using other mystical methods whenever they can join their collective powers.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:45 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
charlequin wrote:
I'm getting back to this a little late, but: what is it about Emrakul and Prophet that makes them a good choice to ban for being self-evidently terrible, but makes Iona a bad choice?
People were playing these cards a lot more than people play Iona today.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 9:29 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Charlequin wrote:
So: if we all more or less agree that Iona is miserable, and largely agree that there's no legitimately fun or interesting way to play her that doesn't involve purposely holding back, and clearly some portion of people continue to run into her and think she'll be awesome and fun, what exactly is the core of the case against a ban?


The core of their case is this:

Crokaycete wrote:
People were playing these cards a lot more than people play Iona today.


Carthain wrote:
Let me be more explicit then: In this case, the majority needs to. Why? Because she's been legal for over 6 years, has been brought up as a card desired by people to be banned, but hasn't been. Nothing about her has changed over the years - she's not got any errata, the format hasn't significantly changed in any way that relates to her ability ... so what else could be enough to suddenly make her ban worthy? A shift in how many metagames she's a problem in would do it.


I do not hold to this idea that a card needs to reach format saturation for it to be banworthy, hence the current disagreement. A card can, and often is, banworthy no matter how many people are actually using it. I mentioned a lot of examples of this in a prior post- Grizzly, Worldfire, Erayo, Trade Secrets, Black Braids etc etc. If we'd banned SyPrime, Emrakul and Prophet at the first opportunity, as we did with some of that list, we'd have saved a lot of people a lot of toxic games.

By the way, Carthain, I'm not ignoring your last reply to me. Stuff just suddenly got hectic on my end and I don't have time to give you a proper response atm. I beg a little more of your patience.

Sheldon wrote:
I drink single malts (preferring the Islay), although I prefer (small batch) bourbon these days as my hard spirit of choice. I've gotten Scott hooked on bourbon and ginger ale (obv baseline stuff like Wild Turkey if you're going to put it with a mixer). I know Gavin drinks wine but don't know about anything else--but along with Alex, he's Canadian, so I suspect a great deal of drinkitude. Toby doesn't drink at all, which is awesome when he visits because he can be the designated driver.


I'm not sure which I find more alarming- that you're still following this thread after thirteen pages, or that you prefer bourbon to single malts :shock:.

_________________
Current Commanders: 7/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Ephara, God of the Polis (Azorius Men O'War)
Etrata, the Silencer (Dimir Blink)
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Mathas, Fiend Seeker (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-17 10:44 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Swmystery wrote:
I'm not sure which I find more alarming- that you're still following this thread after thirteen pages, or that you prefer bourbon to single malts :shock:.


I go through phases with spirits, just like with wine. There was a time when it was single malts or nothing. I got into a rye phase, and now have moved to bourbon, which is important enough in this house to always have at least three different kinds: Wild Turkey for mixing with ginger ale; Blanton's or Angel's Envy for mint juleps and Pappy van Winkle (when we can get it) or an equivalent for just sipping.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 1:06 am 
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Swmystery wrote:
By the way, Carthain, I'm not ignoring your last reply to me. Stuff just suddenly got hectic on my end and I don't have time to give you a proper response atm. I beg a little more of your patience.

No problem. I'm trying to read this, but step back for a bit anyways. :)


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