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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 12:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-08 1:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
People were playing these cards a lot more than people play Iona today.

Okay, that's a reasonable distinction. It does seem to me like there's no kind of affirmative argument in favor of Iona on offer -- rather, it's that she's not quite obnoxious and unanswerable, or quite popular enough, to actually reach the standard needed to add to the ban list. Would you disagree with this? Because I'm not sure keeping the list one card smaller is actually a compelling reason to avoid action on a card that no one is actually willing to stand up and defend as fun-increasing and in keeping with the format's philosophy.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 3:07 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Swmystery wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
That won't get painters back, per RC posts in the past.


This. Ugin put paid to that. Then again, it's definitely not coming off the list with Iona legal, so...

I dont think ugin is the reason why servant is banned.

servant is banned because it will only get used to be obnoxious... Like Deathgrip obnoxious.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-18 7:17 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
That won't get painters back, per RC posts in the past.


This. Ugin put paid to that. Then again, it's definitely not coming off the list with Iona legal, so...

I dont think ugin is the reason why servant is banned.

servant is banned because it will only get used to be obnoxious... Like Deathgrip obnoxious.


Au contraire.

"Many people have floated the idea that this [Iona] goes onto the banned list and Painter's Servant comes off. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is the end of that particular discussion."- Sheldon.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/p ... icle=30316

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 1:37 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
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Also, Islay whiskeys (Bruichladdich excepted) taste like dirt.

Technically they taste like fossil fuel. Delicious, delicious fossil fuel.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 3:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
derp

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Last edited by niheloim on 2016-May-19 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 3:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Swmystery wrote:
niheloim wrote:

servant is banned because it will only get used to be obnoxious... Like Deathgrip obnoxious.


Au contraire.

"Many people have floated the idea that this [Iona] goes onto the banned list and Painter's Servant comes off. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is the end of that particular discussion."- Sheldon.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/p ... icle=30316

Great quote... but still not the reason why servant is banned.

We've had All is Dust for a while. Ugin is just the end of that conversation, not the reason. Ugin could be banned as well as Iona, as well as All is Dust and it would be unlikely for Servant to be unbanned. We still have things like Deathtrap, Teysa, Dream halls, and a myriad of other obnoxious things (many of which I would definitely play) that would keep it a necessary and healthy ban.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 5:10 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
niheloim wrote:
We still have things like Deathtrap, Teysa, Dream halls, and a myriad of other obnoxious things (many of which I would definitely play) that would keep it a necessary and healthy ban.

Really the Ugin/Servant continuous Armageddon machine is the only thing I see where PS accidentally ruins games. It definitely has a lot of potential to intentionally ruin games, by combining with something like Deathgrip. It also has a lot of potential to do sweet things like the Teysa and Dream Halls shenanigans (which are both sweet plays that take 3+ cards).


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 1:32 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
JJackson wrote:
niheloim wrote:
We still have things like Deathtrap, Teysa, Dream halls, and a myriad of other obnoxious things (many of which I would definitely play) that would keep it a necessary and healthy ban.

Really the Ugin/Servant continuous Armageddon machine is the only thing I see where PS accidentally ruins games. It definitely has a lot of potential to intentionally ruin games, by combining with something like Deathgrip. It also has a lot of potential to do sweet things like the Teysa and Dream Halls shenanigans (which are both sweet plays that take 3+ cards).

I'm not sure I'd describe the PS/Teysa "No one gets a board state anymore until I figure out how to win" thing as "sweet." I can think of other, less kind words.

And before anyone mentions Darkest Hour, no, that doesn't work the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 2:12 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
I'm not sure I'd describe the PS/Teysa "No one gets a board state anymore until I figure out how to win" thing as "sweet." I can think of other, less kind words.

It takes assembling PS+Teysa+3 other creatures and only keeps opponents' boards clear of creatures until they can deal with an x/3. Or get down a Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void. Or play creatures with hexproof/shroud/protection. We're talking about Rube Goldberging together an effect that is less obnoxious than Portcullis. I think it is powerful, not broken, and pretty sweet.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-19 5:11 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Teysa isnt bad if she's killing creatures, its when she's fueling another sacrifice outlet... Like blasting station. Its 3 cards, one can be your commander... A tad easy.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-20 12:54 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
niheloim wrote:
Teysa isnt bad if she's killing creatures, its when she's fueling another sacrifice outlet... Like blasting station. Its 3 cards, one can be your commander... A tad easy.

Comboing off like that is fine if your group is fine with that, otherwise it is obviously antisocial. Doing this comparable to Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity, Mike & Trike, or Kikiscripts. With a five-digit card pool, you're going to have table kill combos available. PS isn't even a unique enabler for this; Darkest Hour works just fine to power as many sacrifices as you'd like.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-20 1:06 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
JJackson wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Teysa isnt bad if she's killing creatures, its when she's fueling another sacrifice outlet... Like blasting station. Its 3 cards, one can be your commander... A tad easy.

Comboing off like that is fine if your group is fine with that, otherwise it is obviously antisocial. Doing this comparable to Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity, Mike & Trike, or Kikiscripts. With a five-digit card pool, you're going to have table kill combos available. PS isn't even a unique enabler for this; Darkest Hour works just fine to power as many sacrifices as you'd like.

Again, no, it doesn't quite work like that. Darkest Hour makes all creatures Mono-Black, causing them to lose all other colors. Because of that, sure, you'll always get a spirit, but it completely shuts down Teysa's first ability.

Yes, you can still use your flying scrubs to fuel an Ashnod's Altar or something, but you lose removal on call and you don't get to lockout the board until you fuel even more cards into it. Similar, sure, but it's a LOT more fair than the PS lock.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-20 1:47 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-01 6:02 am
Age: Drake
Location: South Carolina
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
Yes, you can still use your flying scrubs to fuel an Ashnod's Altar or something, but you lose removal on call and you don't get to lockout the board until you fuel even more cards into it. Similar, sure, but it's a LOT more fair than the PS lock.

like one more card?

martyr's bond, that one guy from Malakir, to say nothing of all the blood artists and other grave pacts that keep popping up would like to have a talk with you, maybe?

3 cards and 2 can be enchantments, 1 is commander. not the easiest for some decks to deal with effectively. :/


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-20 3:23 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
Darkest Hour makes all creatures Mono-Black, causing them to lose all other colors. Because of that, sure, you'll always get a spirit, but it completely shuts down Teysa's first ability.

Niheloim was specifically talking about infinite spirits to fuel blasting station or similar. You don't need to kill creatures if you are killing the table.

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Similar, sure, but it's a LOT more fair than the PS lock.

I strongly disagree. The PS "lock" is predicated on two x/3 and at least 3 other creatures remaining on the board. You can still cast any spells, you still get your ETB triggers on your creatures, and it doesn't touch things that it can't target. It is a strong play, but a hard lock it ain't.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-20 6:37 am 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
Even a soft lock is a prison strategy, which large numbers of people do not find enjoyable in a casual format.

I know in my play group, the distinction between a hard lock and a soft lock is usually that the latter might be an accident, so can be excused while you replace part of it between games.

Just food for thought.

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