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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-25 4:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Swmystery wrote:
JJackson wrote:
A man comes up to you on the street and says that he needs $2 to get gas since he ran out on his way to a job interview. He looks pretty legit, business casual attire and plastic gas can in hand, so you do him the solid and kick him $2. You watch him take your money and go buy a lotto ticket.

The next day, you see the same guy, same situation, asking for $2. What do you do?


If I thought he'd kill himself if I didn't give him the $2...I'd still give him the $2.

Likewise, with Iona- if the choice is letting somebody be Iona locked repeatedly or letting them lie to me and get away with it, I'd shoot the Iona because it's still goddamn miserable for them.


Why are you adding extremely unrealistic caveats to the situation? A con man isn't going to kill himself because someone picked up on his game. Your group apparently sucks at politics. No wonder you have issues with Iona.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-25 5:01 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Why are you adding extremely unrealistic caveats to the situation? A con man isn't going to kill himself because someone picked up on his game. Your group apparently sucks at politics. No wonder you have issues with Iona.


It's an example. The point I was trying to make was that if something very bad was going to happen to the person if I didn't trust them, I'd trust them even though I have substantial reason not to. Being repeatedly Iona-locked seems suitably "very bad" to me.

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Last edited by Swmystery on 2016-May-25 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-25 5:18 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Why are you adding extremely unrealistic caveats to the situation?

Well, the example wasn't especially enlightening though because a player in your play group that wants to play a game with you is not exactly equal to a stranger on the street asking for money.

I know the point you were trying to get across but a caveat like "the player might choose to never come back because he keeps getting Iona locked and no one helps him because he betrayed his word that one time" is not an especially unrealistic caveat.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-25 6:26 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
cheethorne wrote:
I know the point you were trying to get across but a caveat like "the player might choose to never come back because he keeps getting Iona locked and no one helps him because he betrayed his word that one time" is not an especially unrealistic caveat.

It was my example, not Epsilon's, and it is fine. If you don't like a conman here is another one:

You buy a Penumbra Bobcat from someone on ebay. Your package contains an actual bobcat.

If you don't like it because it is a stranger, consider the friend who asks if you'd like a Hertz Donut. You're probably not going to fall for their betrayal a second time.

Player C is blameless for staying away from somebody who burned them previously. If this is a friend group that plays regularly, player B will get opportunities to rebuild their rep. Eventually somebody is going to give them another chance, and hopefully they will be wiser about what happens when they make their promises meaningless.

Personally, if somebody is going to leave a game because I won't fall for their lies, I'll show them the door. It sucks that they got Iona-locked (which I would talk to the Iona player about outside of the game), but if they are going to break deals, they don't get to make deals. And if they can't deal with that, they aren't the kind of person that I want to be around.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 4:33 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
niheloim wrote:
this conversation is a little silly.

JJackson wrote:

On second thought, lets not go to Dominaria, it's a rather silly place.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-26 7:05 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-23 6:57 pm
Age: Wyvern
If you have talk to the Iona player outside of the game that seems like a card that is unhealthy for a casual fun format. Just an opinion from what I've been reading.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 2:27 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Whether people accept it or not, ubiquity is a major consideration when it comes to ban criteria.

Iona has a place in the competitive meta where reanimating her on turn 3 is the only way to stop the mono black combo deck in time. I'm not saying either of these are things I personally want to be doing, but they are things that some people want to do.

Banning Iona is simply taking toys away from people who want them and not really benefiting other people. It's akin to banning marbles because most people dont like playing with marbles and prefer yoyos.

Iona is one of several important yard sticks that tell you what kind of people you are playing against. If your opponent shows you Iona, you know this is not the kind of deck you want to play against and can stop playing, but her lack of frequency means it is not a problem very often.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 8:16 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
If your opponent shows you Iona, you know this is not the kind of deck you want to play against and can stop playing
I have always despised this argument. It basically comes down to saying, "if someone is doing something to make games miserable, you should just quit playing altogether." If the player who is playing the Iona deck is around all the time, and plays in most every game, then your only option is to quit Magic entirely and go play some other game instead? That is not a reasonable solution, and shrinks the community instead of growing it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 8:39 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
specter404 wrote:
Whether people accept it or not, ubiquity is a major consideration when it comes to ban criteria.

Iona has a place in the competitive meta where reanimating her on turn 3 is the only way to stop the mono black combo deck in time. I'm not saying either of these are things I personally want to be doing, but they are things that some people want to do.

Banning Iona is simply taking toys away from people who want them and not really benefiting other people. It's akin to banning marbles because most people dont like playing with marbles and prefer yoyos.

Iona is one of several important yard sticks that tell you what kind of people you are playing against. If your opponent shows you Iona, you know this is not the kind of deck you want to play against and can stop playing, but her lack of frequency means it is not a problem very often.


I can find peace with this. i hate the card, but I can imagine people enjoying this style of play, so I don't think it should be banned. Newer players might get the wrong idea about her, and find out she's no pretty girl next door but a syphilis infested succubus, but they'll have to learn the hard way.

If you refuse to play against decks containing Iona, you're limiting yourself and can't blame other people for it. i don't think that's ever the right solution.

If you encounter her every now and then, well, it's sad she ruined a game, but you'll be able to move on. If she shows up in mostly every game, other people will get tired of her and public opinion will turn against Iona-wielders. Absolutely-worst-ever-case-scenario, fight fire with fire and build yourself some kind of obnoxious control deck that prevents Iona from ever being able to ETB.

Tired of this thread now, Nigerian Prince out :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 11:09 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Iona has a place in the competitive meta where reanimating her on turn 3 is the only way to stop the mono black combo deck in time.

This is mostly garbage. Assuming that reanimating her turn 3 is the best way to stop any combo shenanigans (it isn't), the vast majority of competitively viable EDH decks are NOT monocolor and the few that are either mostly artifact-based anyway (Daretti, Arcum) or has a way around her (Yisan, Jalira). The single biggest advantage Iona brings to a competitive match is being able to lock out an opposing general, a task at which it is neither the only one nor the best.


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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 8:34 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
If your opponent shows you Iona, you know this is not the kind of deck you want to play against and can stop playing
I have always despised this argument. It basically comes down to saying, "if someone is doing something to make games miserable, you should just quit playing altogether." If the player who is playing the Iona deck is around all the time, and plays in most every game, then your only option is to quit Magic entirely and go play some other game instead? That is not a reasonable solution, and shrinks the community instead of growing it.
No your option is to play OTHER people or talk to them about Iona. But taking personal responsibility for your fun is part of the social contract to me. Give someone input, then act yourself if they choose not to.

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 Post subject: Re: The Case for Banning Iona
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-02 1:31 pm 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
MRHblue wrote:
Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
If your opponent shows you Iona, you know this is not the kind of deck you want to play against and can stop playing
I have always despised this argument. It basically comes down to saying, "if someone is doing something to make games miserable, you should just quit playing altogether." If the player who is playing the Iona deck is around all the time, and plays in most every game, then your only option is to quit Magic entirely and go play some other game instead? That is not a reasonable solution, and shrinks the community instead of growing it.
No your option is to play OTHER people or talk to them about Iona. But taking personal responsibility for your fun is part of the social contract to me. Give someone input, then act yourself if they choose not to.


I think you're underestimating how difficult it can be to find those new people, especially in smaller towns.

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