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 Post subject: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 5:30 am 

Joined: 2016-May-30 5:25 am
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are gold border cards legal in commander and duel commander?


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 2:10 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
No, gold bordered cards are not legal in any sanctioned match.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 2:56 pm 
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Heading off the most likely reply to specter404's post:

Most Commander games are not sanctioned; however gold-bordered cards are not Magic cards (they have a different back) and so they can't be used to construct a Magic deck.

Having said that, if you have a regular playgroup, ask them. Make sure you're using completely opaque card sleeves so you can't tell you're about to draw a gold-bordered card.

If you don't have a regular playgroup, they're not legal.

HTH

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 5:51 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
We allow them, but we never play sanctioned tournaments. Magic cards are expensive enough, so if you can buy a Flooded Strand at 2$ or a Vampiric Tutor at 8$, nobody complains. We're very lenient, I even play Flock of Rabid Sheep in my farm tokens deck.

But you should talk to your group, many people have a problem with these kind of cards because they themselves spend a lot of $$$ to have original, official cards, and feel somewhat cheated if you play gold cards or IE cards.

In these discussions, bear in mind that there are no 'official' Commander tournaments as far as I know, and therefor no 'official' Commander tournament rules, so you'll have a strong point for using them. But if it really pisses people off, it's not worth the drama. It's probably a good idea to have at least 1 tournament legal version of all gold cards you play, so you can switch in the original to stop a guy from sobbing.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 8:03 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
I've always taken the stance that the gold-bordered cards are indeed real magic cards, and should be allowed in Commander (so long as you have opaque sleeves so you can't see the different backs). They're officially produced Wizards of the Coast product and should be treated as such. The only thing the gold borders and/or CE/IE backs mean is that they're not tournament legal - but when's the last time you played a Commander deck in an official tournament?

That said, I'll reinforce what Nigerian Prince posted: "if it really pisses people off, it's not worth the drama."
You may occasionally run into people who will act all butthurt over you having gold-bordered cards in your deck, so have a backup plan if you happen to play with them. The easiest is to either have cards to swap into those slots, or a different deck without any gold-bordered cards to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-May-30 11:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
CE/IE can actually cause different wear on opaque sleeves, leading to marked cards. Alpha can do that too actually. This may be an argument against playing any of those, but if you change your sleeves regularly enough it shouldn't be an issue.

I may poke a bit of fun at people playing gold bordered cards, if you want to avoid that: get the real thing. Same is true for proxies, which I basically consider them the a variant of.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 2:14 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
Age: Drake
Gold bordered cards are allowed in any Highlander format, even tournaments. Such as highlander, canadian highlander, 7 point highlander. As for Elder dragon highlander (EDH) the format creator never officially pronounced himself on the matter, I think.

That being said, at any GP or other big tournament with side events, wizards employees are allowed to partake during their break time in events, including cube drafting. That being said they are forbidden to draft with said cube if it contains proxies or counterfeit cards, but they are allowed to draft said cube if it includes gold border cards.

To me, this is the case that gold border cards are legal in commander until further notice. Keep in mind the DCI did not come up with the rules for commander, so they cannot enforce their rulings on it like they could in Vintage, Legacy, Modern or standard, where no gold border card of any sort is allowed.

As for the argument of money price for set cards from a print run vs gold border card. This argument falls flat on it's belly when you consider that:

1. The player can likely sell for the same price or more than he bought it for, same cannot be said for gold border.

2. Most gold bordered cards have reached a certain price, recent example from Starcity, a Scrubland collector's edition is sold for 50$ a revised one is sold for 60$, not that big of a difference.

Worst case scenario, ask the player if he feels more comfortable playing you if you place a 100$ bill in the sleeve instead of a gold bordered card. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 3:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
Gold bordered cards are allowed in any Highlander format, even tournaments
You are both making this up and wrong.

If you play a gold bordered card, I will make fun of you. I own actual dual lands. I don't play them in commander. I don't proxy them or run gold-bordered versions. I just use cheaper lands because actual duals are not required for EDH.

There are some gold border cards (whose real versions are also cheap) that I could see running just for style points like Psychatog. I won't accept any argument based on the price of the real version of the card as an excuse for running them though.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 4:02 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
From the MTR:

3.3 Authorized Cards
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets,
supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following
conditions:
• The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back or is a double-faced card.
• The card does not have squared corners.
The card has black or white borders.
• The card is not a token card.
• The card is not damaged or modified in a way that might make it marked.
• The card is otherwise legal for the tournament as defined by the format.
• The card is a proxy issued by the judge of a tournament (see section 3.4 for rules about proxies).

As far as non sanctioned events, you can use whatever you want. The moment it becomes sanctioned, they are not allowed. LGS can and do sanction commander nights and/or commander at FNM as long as 8 people show up.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 7:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
From the MTR:

3.3 Authorized Cards
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets,
supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following
conditions:
• The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back or is a double-faced card.
• The card does not have squared corners.
The card has black or white borders.
• The card is not a token card.
• The card is not damaged or modified in a way that might make it marked.
• The card is otherwise legal for the tournament as defined by the format.
• The card is a proxy issued by the judge of a tournament (see section 3.4 for rules about proxies).

As far as non sanctioned events, you can use whatever you want. The moment it becomes sanctioned, they are not allowed. LGS can and do sanction commander nights and/or commander at FNM as long as 8 people show up.

As much as I agree with the intent of this, no doubt someone will be along shortly to point out that the MTR (Magic Tournament Rules) apply to, well, tournaments. Which the vast majority of Commander games are not.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 8:16 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
Gold bordered cards are allowed in any Highlander format, even tournaments. Such as highlander, canadian highlander, 7 point highlander. As for Elder dragon highlander (EDH) the format creator never officially pronounced himself on the matter, I think.

That being said, at any GP or other big tournament with side events, wizards employees are allowed to partake during their break time in events, including cube drafting. That being said they are forbidden to draft with said cube if it contains proxies or counterfeit cards, but they are allowed to draft said cube if it includes gold border cards.

To me, this is the case that gold border cards are legal in commander until further notice. Keep in mind the DCI did not come up with the rules for commander, so they cannot enforce their rulings on it like they could in Vintage, Legacy, Modern or standard, where no gold border card of any sort is allowed.


Almost none of that is true. Commander is played using the Magic Comprehensive rules as a base and it adds and changes rules on top of that. The rules for which cards can and cannot be played start with the vintage banned/restricted list and are added to after that by the commander list. This is as per the rules section>banlist of this very website. Gold cards aren't legal in vintage so not legal here.

The part about wizards employees is both spurious and irrelevant. What cubes wizards employees are and are not allowed to be play with has no bearing what so ever on the legality of a card in commander.

The answer was stated and elaborated on in the first two posts. We now also have the ruling from the Magic tournament rules. The tournament rules do apply as all sanctioned magic is considered a tournament, from FNM to the pro tour. When we are talking rules we must implicitly assume sanctioned magic play, otherwise there really are no rules.

You will also find that the gold bordered variants do not appear in gatherer, because they are not considered traditional magic cards.

Gold Bordered card are not legal in commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 8:46 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
From the MTR:

3.3 Authorized Cards
Players may use any Authorized Game Cards from Magic: The Gathering expansions, core sets, special sets,
supplements, and promotional printings. Authorized Game Cards are cards that, unaltered, meet the following
conditions:
• The card is genuine and published by Wizards of the Coast
The card has a standard Magic back or is a double-faced card.
• The card does not have squared corners.
The card has black or white borders.
• The card is not a token card.
• The card is not damaged or modified in a way that might make it marked.
• The card is otherwise legal for the tournament as defined by the format.
• The card is a proxy issued by the judge of a tournament (see section 3.4 for rules about proxies).

As far as non sanctioned events, you can use whatever you want. The moment it becomes sanctioned, they are not allowed. LGS can and do sanction commander nights and/or commander at FNM as long as 8 people show up.

As much as I agree with the intent of this, no doubt someone will be along shortly to point out that the MTR (Magic Tournament Rules) apply to, well, tournaments. Which the vast majority of Commander games are not.


They apply to sanctioned events... which the vast majority of commander games where this comes into question are. There are no rules at a kitchen table beyond those of the owner of said table. If you're playing at the LGS or a large magic event, there's a good chance it's sanctioned or at least could be.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 8:56 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
They (The MTR - Ed.)apply to sanctioned events... which the vast majority of commander games where this comes into question are. There are no rules at a kitchen table beyond those of the owner of said table. If you're playing at the LGS or a large magic event, there's a good chance it's sanctioned or at least could be.

The vast majority of kitchen table game would use the Comp Rules, but not the MTR or Floor Rules, I'd suspect (certainly all our games do)

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you - I don't think Gold bordered cards are real magic cards and therefore can't be used - but saying that kitchen table games don't use the rules is..... odd

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 9:03 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
but saying that kitchen table games don't use the rules is..... odd


You can make some hybrid Magic/Pokemon deck at your kitchen table, you can still follow mana burn or damage on the stack, or you can play standard. You are not bound by any rules compared to a LGS where you are far more likely to be bound by the MTR and comprehensive rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 8:44 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
They (The MTR - Ed.)apply to sanctioned events... which the vast majority of commander games where this comes into question are. There are no rules at a kitchen table beyond those of the owner of said table. If you're playing at the LGS or a large magic event, there's a good chance it's sanctioned or at least could be.

The vast majority of kitchen table game would use the Comp Rules, but not the MTR or Floor Rules, I'd suspect (certainly all our games do)

Note that I'm not disagreeing with you - I don't think Gold bordered cards are real magic cards and therefore can't be used - but saying that kitchen table games don't use the rules is..... odd


I think both Viperion and myself were saying there is no real value in discussing "the rules" when talking about kitchen table magic because they are subject to change table to table. As opposed to there are no rules. The assumption when making discussions here is that we are talking about a sanctioned match, because an unsanctioned match is allowed to have any and all rules variations one might want as long as everyone involved agrees

Im not sure of your familiarity with what the tournament rules are, but they apply extremely broadly. While much of it only really matters in a competitive tournament (or other format specific rules), the opening sections discuss how they do apply to all sanctioned magic. The tournament rules are as applicable at FNM as they are at a GP, the penalties and fixes applied when those rules are broken are what's different, and that information is contained in the judging at X guidelines.

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