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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-03 12:11 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
The answer was stated and elaborated on in the first two posts. We now also have the ruling from the Magic tournament rules. The tournament rules do apply as all sanctioned magic is considered a tournament, from FNM to the pro tour. When we are talking rules we must implicitly assume sanctioned magic play, otherwise there really are no rules.
Incorrect. The Magic Comprehensive Rules govern all magic, tournament and casual. The Magic Tournament Rules themselves say they only cover sanctioned, competitive play:

Magic Tournament Rules 2016-04-08 Introduction wrote:
The purpose of this document is to provide the infrastructure used to run Magic: The Gathering (“Magic”) tournaments by defining appropriate rules, responsibilities, and procedures to be followed in all DCI-sanctioned, competitive-level Magic tournaments
As such, you cannot point to the MTR as authoritative rules for casual magic, as they do not govern casual magic any more than house rules do. (And I'll guarantee you that 90% of the MTR is flat-out ignored in a casual setting.)

specter404 wrote:
Gold Bordered card are not legal in commander.
...is your opinion. Gold Bordered cards are perfectly legal in commander is mine.

specter404 wrote:
there is no real value in discussing "the rules" when talking about kitchen table magic because they are subject to change table to table. As opposed to there are no rules. The assumption when making discussions here is that we are talking about a sanctioned match, because an unsanctioned match is allowed to have any and all rules variations one might want as long as everyone involved agrees
Except that there is a baseline rules set that is expected to exist unless there are house rules in effect. And this is what we're discussing. Saying, "there is no real value in discussing 'the rules' when talking about kitchen table magic" is akin to saying, "there are no rules" - it implies that because anything might be house-ruled, you have to check everything, and that's just untrue.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-03 5:59 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
As far as I'm concerned, Gold Bordered cards are as close to a legit proxy as you can get. That being said, it isn't a legal card for use, but can be used to substitute for the real thing under the following circumstances (IMHO):
1) You own an actual copy of the card and could produce it upon request.
AND
2) Your play group is ok with it.

I'll preface this by saying that I proxy very few cards at this point, maybe 5 or fewer between the 11 commander decks I have and I own multiple copies of each.

There are some elitists that will argue that a real copy of a card should be resleeved before play regardless of whether or not you own 4 copies and are proxying a 5th as the only proxy in the deck... I understand your point, and vehemently disagree with the logic behind it, as it is strictly based on principle and nothing more.

Constructed play? Absolutely, 100%, have legit cards in the deck, no proxies.
Casual play? Majority rules. If the majority is ok with the gold bordered card/proxy in place of an easily produced legit card and the proxies are kept to a minimum, the minority can live with it. Reason being that it cuts down on unnecessary shuffling, sorting and sleeving/resleeving.

If you happen to run into a stickler that insists that you swap out the single card on principle, despite the ability to produce 1 or more copies of the actual card...it's not someone you want to be playing with anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 5:09 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The default position should be that they are not real cards. It doesn't matter if you're not playing in a tournament, WOTC didn't make them for play (or rather, specifically made them so you could play the champ decks, presumably against other champ decks). They're commemorative collectibles.
But, i'm all for allowing people play their GB cards against me as proxies because i enjoy people having greater card pools to work from. Very few times have i ever really encountered anyone using proxies at all, though. Actually, i use wayyyy more than anyone i've ever met even though i own all the cards, because i like to use alternate art cards and enjoy being able to play a card i have 2 copies of in 4 decks. I would not proxy something i don't own because i personally hold myself to what i feel is a higher standard i strive for, but nothing wrong with wanting to skate by owning only a few copies but playing it in 5 decks. I mean the argument can be easily made "don't play 6 decks with cradle in them if you don't have 6 cradles". yea, i dunno.... I get it, but i own like 5 and at that point i think i should just be allowed to make proxies. Don't think i've ever met a person would be opposed to me saying "oh hang on, i actually put one of these cards into another deck, can i put it back real quick"? I'm just saving time.

But anyway, bottom line for me is these are explicitly not real cards and you are an ass if you presume to play them without asking consent, even though i think you're (probably) an ass if you really make a big deal about it.

Uthanak wrote:
As for the argument of money price for set cards from a print run vs gold border card. This argument falls flat on it's belly when you consider that:

1. The player can likely sell for the same price or more than he bought it for, same cannot be said for gold border.

2. Most gold bordered cards have reached a certain price, recent example from Starcity, a Scrubland collector's edition is sold for 50$ a revised one is sold for 60$, not that big of a difference.

So you just gave an example of how GB cards have gone up in price, and then said you can't sell them for the same price you bought them at?? Bull.

Being able to "cash out" on your cards does not make them any cheaper to acquire.

Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gold Bordered card are not legal in commander.
...is your opinion. Gold Bordered cards are perfectly legal in commander is mine.

Is that really an opinion? I'm pretty WOTC implies they are not real magic cards... I mean i'd totally let people play GB cards or proxies (to me they're the same, anyway) i just thought it was actually explicitly not a card. I also think baselessly assuming that people are okay with that is not ok.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, Gold Bordered cards are as close to a legit proxy as you can get.

What does this even mean? I'm not nitpicking, i really don't get it. All proxies are just proxies, no? Does this mean you don't allow other proxies?


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 8:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-12 10:51 am
Age: Drake
I wasn't aware there were people that against gold-bordered cards :shock: I play with gold-bordered basics in two of my decks and I never really thought about that people might have objections to them. According to Sovarius, I'm an ass right there. Don't really have much to add to the discussion according to the legality of them, they're clearly not tournament legal and if someone would have an objection to me playing them in a casual game I naturally would not, it's just never come up. I'm also a bit intrigued by this 'it's OK if you can produce an actual copy of the card' standpoint. It feels like a weird thing to demand from your fellow players to open up their trade binder or whatever to show off their Magic Authenticity Pass for you to be satisfied. Just my opinon. I'm interested in knowing if this also includes alters, or if it's only for gold-bordered cards/proxies?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 10:08 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gold Bordered card are not legal in commander.
...is your opinion. Gold Bordered cards are perfectly legal in commander is mine.


This thread is asking a rules question. I'm not offering my opinion, I'm offering an objective ruling based on the given information.

The comp rules do not cover the legality of cards, so we are required to look to other sources. If you have some evidence to show that gold bordered cards are legal then I invite you to provide it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 11:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
The default position should be that they are not real cards. It doesn't matter if you're not playing in a tournament, WOTC didn't make them for play (or rather, specifically made them so you could play the champ decks, presumably against other champ decks). They're commemorative collectibles.
I believe the default position should be that they are real cards. Just because they're collectibles does not mean Wizards didn't intend them to be played with. The From the Vault line is specifically made to be collectibles, but they're explicitly tournament legal. And as for the Champs Decks, arguably they specifically did intend them to be played, as the packaging implies this.

Sovarius wrote:
But anyway, bottom line for me is these are explicitly not real cards and you are an ass if you presume to play them without asking consent, even though i think you're (probably) an ass if you really make a big deal about it.
The issue is that many people consider them to be real magic cards (albeit not tournament legal ones) because they are an official Wizards product, sold with the Magic branding, which they encouraged you to play with. To me, that brings the default to them being non-tournament but "real" cards. I don't think someone should be considered an ass for making that their default assumption.

Sovarius wrote:
Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gold Bordered card are not legal in commander.
...is your opinion. Gold Bordered cards are perfectly legal in commander is mine.
Is that really an opinion? I'm pretty WOTC implies they are not real magic cards... I mean i'd totally let people play GB cards or proxies (to me they're the same, anyway) i just thought it was actually explicitly not a card. I also think baselessly assuming that people are okay with that is not ok.
Without official word from Wizards either way regarding casual play, it's definitely an opinion. As both a retailer and TO for Wizards, my conversations with them about these items, and ad copy and whatnot, point heavily toward these being intended for play in the casual market. As such, I don't think it's baseless to assume that people are OK with it, since when these items were put out for sale the indications were that Wizards intended these for casual play. If you bought these items with the indication Wizards made them for casual play, why would you assume people had a problem with it?

specter404 wrote:
This thread is asking a rules question. I'm not offering my opinion, I'm offering an objective ruling based on the given information.
No, you're offering an opinion and claiming it's an objective ruling. Just saying it's objective does not make it so. I could claim the same thing by saying that they're printed by Wizards, and meant to be played with, so it's obviously an "objective ruling" that they're legal. However, I'm honest enough to point out that without any further published commentary from Wizards, no objective ruling can truly be made.

specter404 wrote:
The comp rules do not cover the legality of cards, so we are required to look to other sources. If you have some evidence to show that gold bordered cards are legal then I invite you to provide it.
The ad copy on the gold-bordered releases, as well as some included parts (such as the blank cards) heavily implied they're meant to be played with. So there's that. I've had conversations with regional tournament coordinators at Wizards, which while never specifically stating gold-bordered cards were legal for casual play did heavily imply that they were. So, there's that, too.

The problem with your argument is that you have no real evidence to support your claims, except to point to the MTR - which on its face says it isn't meant for casual play, and which the vast majority of is ignored in casual play. (Or do you often tell people they can't play if they don't have their DCI number? Do they lose for texting someone or looking something up online during a game? What about re-ordering their graveyard during a Commander game? Do people get kicked out of your casual games for slow play or swearing?)

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 2:48 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
90% of the MTR is ignored during sanctioned tournaments, it's called rules enforcement level. FNM is sanctioned, but where was the last time someone was kick out for using their phone there?

Heresay from unnamed wizards representatives is hardly evidence, especially given by your own admission they didnt actually talk about the topic at hand. So lets just have a look at what a legal card is based on the only document we have have agreed applies, the comprehensive rules.

Quote:
108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a “card,” it means only a Magic card. Most Magic games
use only traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches
(8.8 cm). Certain formats also use nontraditional Magic cards, oversized cards that may have
different backs. Tokens aren’t considered cards—even a card that represents a token isn’t
considered a card for rules purposes.


So unless the format rules specify otherwise, the only card allowed are "traditional magic cards". They mention the size of the card and nothing else.

From this we can either search more broadly for the definition of what a traditional magic card is (for example, other documents produced by WOTC) or we take it at it's word and allow any piece of 2.5x3.5 cardboard to act as a card in casual play.

Quote:
Objective: (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.


I present to you the facts:
All games of magic must use traditional magic cards (as per above reference)
Tradition is that which has been done habitually over a long time (definition)
Magic cards traditionally have black borders on the back (all magic products since inception with one exception)
Gold is not black
Hence, Gold bordered cards are not traditional
Hence, No games of magic can use gold bordered cards.

Given this is a form of inductive reasoning, the best way to counter it is to challenge one of the supporting facts or present a fact which contradicts the conclusion. I would very much like that to happen because if you can prove that GB cards are allowed with sufficient reasoning, I will go and buy a set of dual lands tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 5:28 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
Age: Drake
Cards printed in the following “unsanctioned editions”
are legal for play:

• Collector’s Edition
• Championship Deck Edition
• International Edition
• Alpha Edition

Source: https://canadianhighlander.wordpress.com/intro-to-format/

Any card from Alpha up through the latest Magic set can be used (except for banned cards). Cards from the Portal sets, International Collector Editions, and Championship decks can be used provided you put all your cards in opaque sleeves and the International Collector Edition card edges are rounded.

Source: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Highlander

Are the World Champion/IE/CE cards valid for Highlander tournament play?

Answer:

Ask your tournament organizer. To ease the accessibility, cards from the following editions are still permitted, if the edition cannot be determined from the back of the card:

International Edition
Collector's Edition
Championship decks

Source: http://www.highlandermagic.info/index.php?id=faq#12

Commander, formerly known as Elder Dragon Highlander (usually abbreviated to EDH) is a Highlander variant format with specific rules centered around a legendary creature called "General".

Source: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Commander_(format)

So, since commander originated as a variant from highlander magic, and highlander allows Gold-bordered cards, unless stated otherwise, i'm going to go with them being legal.

As for willbender thinking they were meant to be played with, see my story about cubes with them being endorsed by Wizards of the coast.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-04 10:39 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Sovarius wrote:
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, Gold Bordered cards are as close to a legit proxy as you can get.

What does this even mean? I'm not nitpicking, i really don't get it. All proxies are just proxies, no? Does this mean you don't allow other proxies?


I just meant that, a gold bordered card isn't a tournament legal card, so rather it's representative of a magic card, but produced by WOTC.
Instead of putting a piece of paper over an actual card, writing with sharpie on a basic land or purchasing a alt art proxy, you're actually showing the picture and text for easy recognition without increasing the thickness of the card in the actual sleeve.

Not that I or my group don't allow limited proxies of other fashions, I just happen to prefer gold bordered cards when available because they're easily recognizible. Sharpie proxies are a big no no for us though. If a person can't go through enough effort to make it easy for the group to see from across the table, it's not ok for us.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 1:38 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
You start off by quoting rules for "Canadian Highlander" ... which I'm pretty sure is more recent than EDH. So your chain of logic is invalidated on this point.

Also, "Highlander" as far as I've been aware, doesn't have any set legalities on cards (no band list or anything.) It gets combined with other formats to determine which cards are allowed or not (such as Legacy Highlander).

Also -- Commander/EDH has enough literature about it, you should be able to use only information specifically about Commander/EDH. Reaching into other formats/variants doesn't really help things. Sure, they're similar -- but they're also different. Where is the definitive list of what is different about them? If there isn't one, then how do you know that the use of gold-bordered cards isn't one of the aspects that is different about them?

Also, you are using words/descriptions of the Commander format put there by 3rd parties. How are those supposed to be authoritative? If Johnny the blacksmith's son says that he can use Pokemon cards in his commander deck, do you agree with that simply because he put it into a website somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 4:08 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
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Yes yes, the order I placed the link in disqualifies everything. -.-

Carthain, facepalm of the year award.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 4:50 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
You didn't bother to read what I wrote, did you? Because it wasn't the order of the link at all ... I just grabbed the first one and then proceeded to provide arguments without chopping it up with quotes from your post.

Sooo... who's just dismissing someone's post due to not reading things now?


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 7:22 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
Age: Drake
You first.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 8:09 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Perhaps these cards are legal is Canadian highlander, in 7 point highlander the power 9 are legal.

MTGS, highlandermagic and canadianhighlander websites dont have any control over the rules of commander, and while there are similarities in some parts of the highlander formats, they are different formats.

As per the ruling in the comprehensive rules I mentioned above, unless there is format specific rules which allow non-traditional magic cards, then only traditional black bordered cards are legal. Nothing in the official commander rules allows gold borders, do we only have the default position.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 1:07 pm 
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So you went from: "Almost none of that is true." To realizing I was right about the highlander formats? None of the members of the rule's committee ever post in these thread about proxy and gold bordered cards, I wonder why?

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