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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 1:56 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
About those specific highlander formats. EDH is kin to other highlander formats, but that doesn't mean you can use specific exceptions to the CR those formats have to infer rules in EDH, any more than you could play Oloro in French EDH because it's not banned in regular EDH.

I suspect the RC just doesn't care to impose their will on this issue, any more than they care to stop other non-tournament legal cards (e.g. Uncards) or proxies from being played if the group allows it. By default, however, you should assume only tournament legal cards are acceptable. How your group house-rules this is your call.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 2:06 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
90% of the MTR is ignored during sanctioned tournaments, it's called rules enforcement level. FNM is sanctioned, but where was the last time someone was kick out for using their phone there?
Even at FNM, well over 50% of the MTR is enforced. And saying 90% is unenforced in casual is being generous: Look through the MTR and see what is enforced in casual games. It's a pretty damn short list, and almost all of it doubles stuff in the Comprehensive Rules.

specter404 wrote:
Heresay from unnamed wizards representatives is hardly evidence, especially given by your own admission they didnt actually talk about the topic at hand.
Except, as I said, the topics did also fall upon ad-copy, and selling points of these types of products. And that subject was, "these cards are being made specifically for casual play." Which is definitely relevant to the topic at hand.

specter404 wrote:
As per the ruling in the comprehensive rules I mentioned above, unless there is format specific rules which allow non-traditional magic cards, then only traditional black bordered cards are legal.
In order to back up your argument, you are adding assumptions that are not in what you quoted:
Comprehensive Rules wrote:
108.2. When a rule or text on a card refers to a “card,” it means only a Magic card. Most Magic games use only traditional Magic cards, which measure approximately 2.5 inches (6.3 cm) by 3.5 inches (8.8 cm). Certain formats also use nontraditional Magic cards, oversized cards that may have different backs. Tokens aren’t considered cards—even a card that represents a token isn’t considered a card for rules purposes.
As you yourself admit, nowhere in that section does it state anything about requiring black-bordered cards.

specter404 wrote:
I present to you the facts:
All games of magic must use traditional magic cards (as per above reference)
Tradition is that which has been done habitually over a long time (definition)
I have friends who have been playing with gold-bordered cards in casual play since early 1994. Is 22 out of 23 years of the existence of Magic long enough for you?
Or, how about the fact that the gold-bordered Collector's Editions have existed for longer than white-bordered cards? That means that, traditionally, gold-bordered are more legit than white-bordered by your definition. (Yes, CE/IE predate Unlimited.)

specter404 wrote:
Given this is a form of inductive reasoning, the best way to counter it is to challenge one of the supporting facts or present a fact which contradicts the conclusion.
Challenge supporting fact: Done, unless you think 98% of the lifetime of Magic is not long enough to constitute as "traditional".
Present contradicting fact: Done. Unless you don't consider Wizards ad-copy and employees stating that the Championship decks were meant for casual play to be good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 2:52 pm 
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Collectors edition cards meet the definition of "Traditional Magic Card" in the CR - they are 2.5 x 3.5 inches. They are magic cards printed by WotC. The only reasonable issue to raise is if the person running them has no sleeves or insufficiently opaque sleeves, since at that point it's a marked card.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 3:54 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Collectors edition cards meet the definition of "Traditional Magic Card" in the CR - they are 2.5 x 3.5 inches. They are magic cards printed by WotC. The only reasonable issue to raise is if the person running them has no sleeves or insufficiently opaque sleeves, since at that point it's a marked card.


108.2 does not refer to them needing to be printed by WOTC. So by this reasoning all printed proxies are legal for use in casual games.

Willbender wrote:
Except, as I said, the topics did also fall upon ad-copy, and selling points of these types of products. And that subject was, "these cards are being made specifically for casual play." Which is definitely relevant to the topic at hand.


However casual play is a broad and unspecific term. My understanding of the championship decks was that they were designed to be played as a whole deck, primarily against each other to allow players to experience the "best decks in the world". They were the equivalent of the online gauntlets which are happening now. I haven't been able to find any of the original wizards advertising, if you have some you can show me that would be helpful. Even so, as you go on to say, CE predate most of magic, including commander, so they're original intention could not be for their use to extend to this format.

Quote:
specter404 wrote:
I present to you the facts:
All games of magic must use traditional magic cards (as per above reference)
Tradition is that which has been done habitually over a long time (definition)
I have friends who have been playing with gold-bordered cards in casual play since early 1994. Is 22 out of 23 years of the existence of Magic long enough for you?
Or, how about the fact that the gold-bordered Collector's Editions have existed for longer than white-bordered cards? That means that, traditionally, gold-bordered are more legit than white-bordered by your definition. (Yes, CE/IE predate Unlimited.) [quote]

What you are describing is a traditional use for the cards, not traditional cards. Magic cards are not traditionally printed with with gold borders. The use of thing does not make it's design more or less traditional.

Im not sure this analogy will resonate in America: a cricket ball is traditionally made of four pieces of leather sown together, but in casual backyard games a lot of people use a tennis ball. We may play every weekend in the backyard and always use a tennis ball, so using a tennis ball is traditional for us, but in the broader cricket community if you ask them what a traditional cricket ball is, they wont include tennis balls in the category.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 4:33 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Collectors edition cards meet the definition of "Traditional Magic Card" in the CR - they are 2.5 x 3.5 inches. They are magic cards printed by WotC. The only reasonable issue to raise is if the person running them has no sleeves or insufficiently opaque sleeves, since at that point it's a marked card.
108.2 does not refer to them needing to be printed by WOTC. So by this reasoning all printed proxies are legal for use in casual games.
The point Sid is trying to make is that CE/IE/Championship cards are printed by Wizards, printed under the Magic logo and branding, and fit the proper format for a "traditional magic card" according to the CR.

So it's a Magic card via company of origin, a Magic card by branding, and a Magic card by CR definition. The only thing that you can bring up for your claim that they aren't Magic cards is that they're labeled in a way to indicate they're not tournament legal. So I guess that's 3 points for them being Magic cards, 1 point against.

specter404 wrote:
Even so, as you go on to say, CE predate most of magic, including commander, so they're original intention could not be for their use to extend to this format.
CE/IE were intended for casual play. Commander is a subset of casual play. Therefore CE/IE were intended for Commander via transitive reasoning.

Or, to refute your statement another way: A/B/U cards predate Commander, so by your logic those cards could not have been intended for use in Commander, so they should not be considered legal in Commander? Just because something predates the format doesn't mean it's not legal in the format.

specter404 wrote:
What you are describing is a traditional use for the cards, not traditional cards. Magic cards are not traditionally printed with with gold borders. The use of thing does not make it's design more or less traditional.
How exactly do you define "traditional cards" in a way that doesn't include their "traditional usage"? By age? In that case Magic cards are not traditionally double-faced, so those should all be banned, no? And I don't see how "older than Unlimited" does not equate to "traditional" in the age aspect.

So, if "traditional" is not defined by age, and is not defined by use, then what benchmark are we to use to define "traditional"?

specter404 wrote:
Im not sure this analogy will resonate in America: a cricket ball is traditionally made of four pieces of leather sown together, but in casual backyard games a lot of people use a tennis ball. We may play every weekend in the backyard and always use a tennis ball, so using a tennis ball is traditional for us, but in the broader cricket community if you ask them what a traditional cricket ball is, they wont include tennis balls in the category.
So, what you're saying is that in a casual setting a tennis ball is a valid cricket ball, but not in a more professional setting (like a tournament)?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 5:25 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
Perhaps these cards are legal is Canadian highlander, in 7 point highlander the power 9 are legal.

MTGS, highlandermagic and canadianhighlander websites dont have any control over the rules of commander, and while there are similarities in some parts of the highlander formats, they are different formats.

As per the ruling in the comprehensive rules I mentioned above, unless there is format specific rules which allow non-traditional magic cards, then only traditional black bordered cards are legal. Nothing in the official commander rules allows gold borders, do we only have the default position.


Not to be pedantic, but being so anyway, this is certainly false. I own quite a few WHITE border cards that are quite legal in commander. Some of them were ONLY printed in white border. Imperial Seal being one of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 5:31 pm 

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I think everyone here agrees that GB cards are not Tournament Legal. But, if I'm not mistaken, there are no Commander Tournaments sanctioned by Wizards, since it's not a WOTC organised format, it merely has been getting some hit and miss support the last few years with the annual commander precons. A Commander tournament (awkward as that sounds to me) being organised by a LGS or TO doesn't make it an official WOTC tournament.

Isn't this whole discussion void to begin with? Isn't all of commander by definition casual, since it doens't grant you any DCI points or something?

So based on that, GB cards are just fine to me, but as I stated earlier, when playing strangers and if some one's really anal about it, I wouldn't bother argueing about it and just use another deck, or switch out your GB cards so there's more actual game time :)


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 6:02 pm 
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I'm no expert, but from what I recall reading on Wizards' website is that about everything could be made a sanctioned event by members of their affiliates program. So you could play in a Commander tournament and get a FMN promo.

Quite recently there was some uproar about Wizards punishing affiliates for allowing proxies in Vintage events. Bottom line: could a store get into trouble by allowing golf borders? If your game is in some way organized by the store ("EDH night! Door prizes!), then it could've been sanctioned. If it's an affiliate, then the store needs to follow Wizards guidelines and use some level of REL. Even if it isn't a sanctioned event.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 6:41 pm 
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Shabbaman wrote:
I'm no expert, but from what I recall reading on Wizards' website is that about everything could be made a sanctioned event by members of their affiliates program. So you could play in a Commander tournament and get a FMN promo.
Yes, technically just about anything can be sanctioned, but only certain formats are "ranked" events, and the rest can only be sanctioned as "casual" events. The two types have very different requirements placed upon them.

Shabbaman wrote:
Quite recently there was some uproar about Wizards punishing affiliates for allowing proxies in Vintage events. Bottom line: could a store get into trouble by allowing golf borders? If your game is in some way organized by the store ("EDH night! Door prizes!), then it could've been sanctioned. If it's an affiliate, then the store needs to follow Wizards guidelines and use some level of REL. Even if it isn't a sanctioned event.
As a TO, I can tell you that we are not required to sanction all of our events, nor are we required to use any level of REL at any unsanctioned events. (However, there are benefits for sanctioning, and no real reason not to sanction.) As a WPN retailer, we have certain other obligations (such as limitations on online sales, and not dealing in counterfeit product).

The situation you're remembering came up a few months ago, and the official Wizards statement is here.

The statement mentions only 3 types of cards: Playtest cards, authentic Magic cards, and counterfeits.

As an official Wizards product, gold-bordered cards are not counterfeits. They don't seem to fall under the definition given for Playtest cards, either ("Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance."). This means gold-bordered cards are either considered official Magic cards or are unaddressed by Wizards.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 7:09 pm 
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Thanks for clearing that up.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-05 10:21 pm 
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Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Collectors edition cards meet the definition of "Traditional Magic Card" in the CR - they are 2.5 x 3.5 inches. They are magic cards printed by WotC. The only reasonable issue to raise is if the person running them has no sleeves or insufficiently opaque sleeves, since at that point it's a marked card.
108.2 does not refer to them needing to be printed by WOTC. So by this reasoning all printed proxies are legal for use in casual games.
The point Sid is trying to make is that CE/IE/Championship cards are printed by Wizards, printed under the Magic logo and branding, and fit the proper format for a "traditional magic card" according to the CR.

Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 7:02 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
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Willbender wrote:
I believe the default position should be that they are real cards. Just because they're collectibles does not mean Wizards didn't intend them to be played with. The From the Vault line is specifically made to be collectibles, but they're explicitly tournament legal. And as for the Champs Decks, arguably they specifically did intend them to be played, as the packaging implies this.

To be fair, i did say "intended to be played as that deck or against those decks". Yea, you can take them apart and do whatever, and should, and they were never saying not to. But they are specifically commemorative and not tournament legal.

Also, it's somewhat dishonest to compare them to FTV sets. FTV sets are also specifically made to be playable and that's why they have 'real' Magic backs and are not gold bordered.

Willbender wrote:
The issue is that many people consider them to be real magic cards (albeit not tournament legal ones) because they are an official Wizards product, sold with the Magic branding, which they encouraged you to play with. To me, that brings the default to them being non-tournament but "real" cards. I don't think someone should be considered an ass for making that their default assumption.

I don't have any experience with people thinking they are real cards. My experience has actually been that people "wish you could play them in commander, why isn't there a commander rule that lets you play GB cards?". That's been my only experience but a common one too, since a lot of people wish it were allowed.
I understand casual games are not tournament games and not subject to certain tournament rules, but i don't think you are actually intended to make up other rules such "you can play GB cards".
What other rules are you supposed to be allowed to change? Just because it's a casual game, it doesn't mean people just allow banned cards by default. Just because it's a casual game doesn't mean you can just choose to take a free friendly mulligan. Just because it's a casual game doesn't mean you are allowed to reorder your graveyard in commander and just because it's a casual game doesn't mean someone can say "dude, stop reordering your graveyard, you can't do that, i'm sick of playing with you if you're not going to follow rules". Just because no one enforces the notion that you should not be looking up stuff online doesn't you mean that you should - this is just both potentially seen as rude and a potential way to cheat.
"This isn't a tournament" could applied to virtually anything, and while some would be extreme examples that are obviously dumb, some of them make just as much sense as allowing GB cards for the same reason.

Willbender wrote:
If you bought these items with the indication Wizards made them for casual play, why would you assume people had a problem with it?

I don't assume people have a problem with it. I don't think i said that. I think you should assume that people could have a problem with it, and i think that because my stance is that they are obviously not real cards.

Willbender wrote:
MTR - which on its face says it isn't meant for casual play, and which the vast majority of is ignored in casual play.

I ignore most if too because i don't think texting on your phone or ordering your GY is a big deal and etc etc. But it doesn't mean that we should ignore it, or that you're a bad person if you don't ignore it the same way. The fact that most people ignore a lot of the rules that really only apply to serious matches doesn't make GB cards real cards, nor does it mean you should presume that a random group you are joining is comfortable with that. The fact that some people do have a problem with it for various reasons is cause enough for me to never presume these. I mean, you can't go wrong on this issue with wb/bb cards with round corners and regular MTG back. So playing GB is just putting yourself in unnecessary risk. Not great risk, obviously, since only some people will truly be butthurt about it and there's no real penalty besides "no", but still a risk nonetheless.

Willbender wrote:
Or do you often tell people they can't play if they don't have their DCI number?

Well i do if they want WOTC to know we played that game and earn the store points. Come on, this is a terrible argument.

Willbender wrote:
Do they lose for texting someone or looking something up online during a game? What about re-ordering their graveyard during a Commander game? Do people get kicked out of your casual games for slow play or swearing?

I mean, you can only enforce this by saying "dude, that's not ok. please stop. come on, i'm serious" and then "dude, i quit, we are not playing anymore". It isn't a tournament so there's no judges to enforce any rule. But not being in a tournament doesn't mean that you have free reign over these things and do as you please. Just because i can't compel you to get off your phone doesn't mean you just get to. I can only say i'm not playing. Same with GB cards, i can just say i'm not playing. Same with proxies, i can just say i'm not playing.

Willbender wrote:
Except, as I said, the topics did also fall upon ad-copy, and selling points of these types of products. And that subject was, "these cards are being made specifically for casual play." Which is definitely relevant to the topic at hand.

But if they don't make rules for casual play, it doesn't mean people are compelled to allow GB cards...? It just means they made them for casual play.
They also made Unglued.... You brought up the blank cards with the Champs decks, do i have to allow people to use their made-up cards? Do i have to allow them to play proxies made with those blank cards? Am i supposed to be able to use 1996 World Champion and Shichifukujin Dragon? Holiday Promos?

Willbender wrote:
How exactly do you define "traditional cards" in a way that doesn't include their "traditional usage"? By age? In that case Magic cards are not traditionally double-faced, so those should all be banned, no? And I don't see how "older than Unlimited" does not equate to "traditional" in the age aspect.

So, if "traditional" is not defined by age, and is not defined by use, then what benchmark are we to use to define "traditional"?

The benchmark is that they are not from commemorative or collectible sets/decks, are from normal sets/blocks, are made for legal play usage.

DFC cards actually fit this. They also print checklist cards with normal magic backs because you aren't required to use sleeves to play your decks. GB cards are not given a normal Magic back for a reason.

Actually, what is the reason they marked GB cards? I think none were printed for supply purposes or because the WB/BB "real" versions were too high priced? They could have printed tournament legal cards without destroying the game and didn't.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
But, if I'm not mistaken, there are no Commander Tournaments sanctioned by Wizards, since it's not a WOTC organised format, it merely has been getting some hit and miss support the last few years with the annual commander precons. A Commander tournament (awkward as that sounds to me) being organised by a LGS or TO doesn't make it an official WOTC tournament.

Does it have to have a GP or being ProTour format in your opinion?
And it is a WOTC format technically even if they didn't originally create it the way they invented Legacy. At least now that they directly support and codified rules. The RC still control it and effectively still own it.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
Isn't this whole discussion void to begin with? Isn't all of commander by definition casual, since it doens't grant you any DCI points or something?

Designing the format to be played casually and to be casual-player-friendly does not actually make it casual. But you can sanction Commander games at your store.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 7:53 am 
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You know.... the rules on the site here starts off by saying "Commander is played with vintage legal cards."

So, if you ask someone if they want to play Vintage -- are gold bordered cards legal?

Typically no. Typically a player will say that they've got gold bordered cards (or they'll call them proxies) and ask if the other player(s) mind.

Combine with that that in other threads about proxies here -- posters specifically call out gold bordered cards as ones that they allow --- meaning that they think (correctly or not) that they are not valid/legal cards by default.

And while certain groups can allow or disallow them -- I feel since the general feeling seems to be that they aren't legal -- then, in order to follow what Commander is about (socializing and not being jerks to each other), if you want to use them -- just check with the other players first to see if they mind. I think most people would be fine with them so long as you ask first.

If you want an answer by someone from the RC:
Genomancer wrote:
They're disallowed by virtue of being illegal in Vintage... World Championship and Collector's edition cards aren't printed for playing with, so much as learning or collecting. Some groups may allow them, but most consider them somewhat rude, so best to ask around; they're really no better than proxies, and the collectable nature of the game is one of it's driving forces.
-- A post 10 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 8:28 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Willbender wrote:
specter404 wrote:
What you are describing is a traditional use for the cards, not traditional cards. Magic cards are not traditionally printed with with gold borders. The use of thing does not make it's design more or less traditional.
How exactly do you define "traditional cards" in a way that doesn't include their "traditional usage"? By age? In that case Magic cards are not traditionally double-faced, so those should all be banned, no? And I don't see how "older than Unlimited" does not equate to "traditional" in the age aspect.

So, if "traditional" is not defined by age, and is not defined by use, then what benchmark are we to use to define "traditional"?


The benchmark is the percentage of cards which have been made in the same way. For it to be a traditionally designed card, most of the cards printed should have the same design.

Edit: I want to stress that the age requirement is not "This thing is old", but rather "we've done it this way for a long time". Cards printed in SOI are traditional cards because they are the same style as most other magic cards. Traditional Italian food wasn't made in Rome in 35BC, just made in the same way.

DFC's are not traditional, which is why they come with special rules attached and special checklist cards which allow them to be used.

Edit edit: As to the white border discussion, I have been referring to the back of the cards. Perhaps that wasn't clear to everyone, but the gold border on the CE cards is on the back of the card. All tournament legal cards have black borders including revised through 9th ed.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2016-Jun-06 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 12:48 pm 
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I went and asked Matt Tabak on his Tumblr: (he's not on the Rules committee, but he is the Rules Manager for Magic so he knows what he's talking about):

Quote:
Q: Hoping you can settle a dispute over on the mtgcommander forums; there's a debate going on atm around gold bordered cards being legal/not legal in the format since the Comp Rules on define a "real" magic card as per it's dimensions and nothing else; can you real quick give a legal/not legal decision for gold borders in non-sanctioned Commander games?

A: Gold-bordered cards don’t have a Magic back, if memory serves. That’s what would make them illegal, not their border color.

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