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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 3:55 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-13 11:10 pm
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According to Matt Tabak that would also make them illegal in other highlander variants and cube draft, where they are allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-06 4:20 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Huh, this thread kind of blew up.

Anyway, the default, as the post from Genomancer notes, is that gold-bordered cards are not legal due to the requirement of "Vintage-legal cards", which is defined in the MTR.

They're certainly not legal in any sanctioned play (and yes, all sanctioned play is covered by the MTR - the cited reference to "competitive" is not to the REL, but the English meaning of the term - and 100% of MTR rules are in effect in all sanctioned events, despite claims here. It's been carefully constructed to work that way).

In casual play, you can do whatever you want. Charizard is a legal card if you're willing to put in the time to make rules for it. As with Charizard, forcing it onto a playgroup without discussing it first is impolite and not supported by the RC.

The argument about "Highlander" meaning gold border is acceptable is bizarre. "Highlander" simply refers to the singleton nature of a format and carries no meaning beyond that. I cannot create Pokemon Highlander tomorrow and claim that it means all Commander decks must contain a Charizard.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 1:10 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
I cannot create Pokemon Highlander tomorrow and claim that it means all Commander decks must contain a Charizard.


Don't sell yourself short.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 1:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
I cannot create Pokemon Highlander tomorrow and claim that it means all Commander decks must contain a Charizard.


Don't sell yourself short.

I would think that of most people that play EDH, you would be in the best spot for making this rule.


BTW, thanks to everyone who provided a definitive answer to point to regarding this eternal question.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 1:58 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
I would think that of most people that play EDH, you would be in the best spot for making this rule.


You're not wrong.

14. All players must include a Charizard in their Command Zone. This serves no game function, but don't tell Charizard that.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 2:28 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uthanak wrote:
According to Matt Tabak that would also make them illegal in other highlander variants and cube draft, where they are allowed.

You seem to have misunderstanding that just because certain formats explicitly allow them that they are by default allowed by any other similar format.

Tabak gave the default legality status for those cards. The formats which you posted links to explicitly override the default (which is why they mention them in what is legal.)


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 2:42 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
I would think that of most people that play EDH, you would be in the best spot for making this rule.


You're not wrong.

14. All players must include a Charizard in their Command Zone. This serves no game function, but don't tell Charizard that.


Need it be a card? Can I use a figurine, a console with charizard saved to it, or an actual live charizard instead?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 5:31 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
specter404 wrote:
Edit edit: As to the white border discussion, I have been referring to the back of the cards. Perhaps that wasn't clear to everyone, but the gold border on the CE cards is on the back of the card. All tournament legal cards have black borders including revised through 9th ed.


There were never white border backed Magic cards, they have all had the same back. There was a discussion for changing the back but they couldn't because of the ability to play without sleeves. Then the cards would be 'marked'... The borders on the back have always been black. Even on the 'gold cards'... The borders being discussed are on the played face of the card, where there are 4 colors. White, Black, Silver (Un-Sets), and Gold (TI and CE cards).

White: Explicitly legal, as they are Legal in Vintage.
Black: Explicitly legal, as they are legal in Vintage.
Silver: Not legal, as they are only printed in banned sets (the lands from the Un-sets are reprints, hence the black border on those.
Gold: No ruling on legality in Commander one way or another, HOWEVER, they are reprinted cards, and the cards they represent ARE legal unless specifically banned. Reprints are generally legal (except in cases of the MTR, where gold borders are explicitly banned in SANCTIONED events.) which is why modern bordered frames of older cards are legal in Vintage and old border frames that have a modern border printing are legal in Modern.

Does that help clear things up?

EDIT:

My personal opinion is that (on the condition you are using fully opaque sleeves) that since the cards are reprints of legal cards, they are legal.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 7:58 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Need it be a card? Can I use a figurine, a console with charizard saved to it, or an actual live charizard instead?


I'll allow Pokemon Snap.

And I'm not going to tell a live Charizard that it can't be there, but check with your playgroup first. They can cause allergies.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 8:14 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
There were never white border backed Magic cards, they have all had the same back. There was a discussion for changing the back but they couldn't because of the ability to play without sleeves. Then the cards would be 'marked'... The borders on the back have always been black. Even on the 'gold cards'... The borders being discussed are on the played face of the card, where there are 4 colors. White, Black, Silver (Un-Sets), and Gold (TI and CE cards).


They all had black borders on the back was exactly the point I was making. The only magic cards in history that have different backs are the CE edition cards, which have gold borders on the back

source: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p99473.html
http://www.abugames.com/images/guidetoeditions/Collectors_Edition_Serra_Angel.jpg
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=31029

tgambitg wrote:
Does that help clear things up?

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-07 8:47 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
specter404 wrote:
They all had black borders on the back was exactly the point I was making. The only magic cards in history that have different backs are the CE edition cards, which have gold borders on the back

source: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p99473.html
http://www.abugames.com/images/guidetoeditions/Collectors_Edition_Serra_Angel.jpg
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=31029


OK.. Yeah, I forgot about those, but they aren't the Gold Border cards people are talking about in this thread, they're talking about the ones with the gold on the front, instead of a white or black border...The CE I was talking about was the Championship Edition cards, which have a completely different back, and a gold border on front...

Like this:
Image

The ones you are talking about, most people won't even bat an eye at, because there's nothing on the front side to distinguish that they are Collectors Edition at first glance. The Championship Decks DO distinguish with the gold border on front. That is the issue some people have.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to play with either if they are using transparent/translucent sleeves, as they can be considered 'marked' at that point, but I don't care if they're using fully opaque sleeves, and I don't have a problem with the gold bordered front cards, as long as the card it is a reprint of is legal in Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-08 3:51 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Gold: No ruling on legality in Commander one way or another [...]
My personal opinion is that (on the condition you are using fully opaque sleeves) that since the cards are reprints of legal cards, they are legal.

Matt Tabak, Papa Funk, and Genomancer (thought 10 years ago) are on record saying that's not an opinion. You mean it's your opinion that they are okay for people to play with, which is different than 'they are legal' which is an objective truth or untruth.

tgambitg wrote:
OK.. Yeah, I forgot about those, but they aren't the Gold Border cards people are talking about in this thread

Some are talking about both because they're both relevant. But i think actually maybe a couple people didn't know there was two types.

The thing with the Champ decks cards is they don't have the MTG back, they definitely count as "are not the black border legal cards" which should have been more correctly/thoroughly phrased "are not the MTG back black border legal cards".

tgambitg wrote:
The ones you are talking about, most people won't even bat an eye at, because there's nothing on the front side to distinguish that they are Collectors Edition at first glance.

They have square borders and going unnoticed does not make them okay.
tgambitg wrote:
The Championship Decks DO distinguish with the gold border on front. That is the issue some people have.

I don't think that's the case. The case is that Champs decks, CE, and IE are all not 'real' cards in some way. The location of their Gold Border that all 3 have is irrelevant. None of them are Vintage Legal cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-08 4:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
tgambitg wrote:
specter404 wrote:
They all had black borders on the back was exactly the point I was making. The only magic cards in history that have different backs are the CE edition cards, which have gold borders on the back

source: http://www.trollandtoad.com/p99473.html
http://www.abugames.com/images/guidetoeditions/Collectors_Edition_Serra_Angel.jpg
http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=31029


OK.. Yeah, I forgot about those, but they aren't the Gold Border cards people are talking about in this thread, they're talking about the ones with the gold on the front, instead of a white or black border...The CE I was talking about was the Championship Edition cards, which have a completely different back, and a gold border on front...

Like this:
Image

The ones you are talking about, most people won't even bat an eye at, because there's nothing on the front side to distinguish that they are Collectors Edition at first glance. The Championship Decks DO distinguish with the gold border on front. That is the issue some people have.

I wouldn't allow my opponent to play with either if they are using transparent/translucent sleeves, as they can be considered 'marked' at that point, but I don't care if they're using fully opaque sleeves, and I don't have a problem with the gold bordered front cards, as long as the card it is a reprint of is legal in Commander.


While I wouldn't bat an eye these have always stuck out even at first glance. The gold border and signature stick out like a sore thumb.

I don't particularly mind them, but I think they're ugly and won't use them. I actually have a few that I meant to paint on but never got around to.

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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-09 2:30 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gambit means the CE/IE ones, they have a black border on the front and no indication of their set. (Other than CE being squared corners)


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 Post subject: Re: Gold border cards
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-09 11:54 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
tgambitg wrote:
There were never white border backed Magic cards, they have all had the same back.

Well, actually... look here or here.

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