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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-27 6:44 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 10:02 pm
Age: Wyvern
Braids should be banned ONLY as commander imho.

I can understand that the reason braids was banned as commander back in old days, it should be interpreted as the rc believed she should be fine as 1 of the 99. And she was really fine there for the next 7 years. But one day as "banned as commander" was removed, all banned as commander cards were moved to ban list, this decision was just LAZY: hey I am not going to write new rules for you(and mtgo, wotc cares abt this), so sit still there and dont cause me nor mtgo programmers any additional lines of codes.

Imho, it is not wrong to keep Braids banned, which currently there is no "banned as commander" list. But it is wrong to remove the "banned as commander" list. What is the problem of having TWO list? Vintage hv banlist AND restrict list. It was said "felt it was clearer to have a single, streamlined banlist"(Sept2014), what actually become more streamlined in these two years? Shorter RC meetings?

Please bring back "banned as commander"!


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-27 11:51 pm 
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lithatog wrote:
Braids should be banned ONLY as commander imho.

I can understand that the reason braids was banned as commander back in old days, it should be interpreted as the rc believed she should be fine as 1 of the 99. And she was really fine there for the next 7 years. But one day as "banned as commander" was removed, all banned as commander cards were moved to ban list, this decision was just LAZY: hey I am not going to write new rules for you(and mtgo, wotc cares abt this), so sit still there and dont cause me nor mtgo programmers any additional lines of codes.

Imho, it is not wrong to keep Braids banned, which currently there is no "banned as commander" list. But it is wrong to remove the "banned as commander" list. What is the problem of having TWO list? Vintage hv banlist AND restrict list. It was said "felt it was clearer to have a single, streamlined banlist"(Sept2014), what actually become more streamlined in these two years? Shorter RC meetings?

Please bring back "banned as commander"!


I'm curious: you keep using the word "wrong." If you're just saying that you don't like it, tell us. Otherwise, please explain what's "wrong."

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 4:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
lithatog wrote:
But one day as "banned as commander" was removed, all banned as commander cards were moved to ban list, this decision was just LAZY

That isn't true. Kokusho was fully unbanned.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 8:59 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
lithatog wrote:
Braids should be banned ONLY as commander imho... But one day as "banned as commander" was removed, all banned as commander cards were moved to ban list, this decision was just LAZY
No it was lazy not to bother looking to see if that was accurate.
.
.
.
NOPE

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 8:25 pm 

Joined: 2016-Jul-12 7:25 pm
Age: Hatchling
Hello!

This is my first post on this website. Hurray!

First off I want to say I would love to see Braids unbanned!

So why is Braids bad for EDH:

- She is super bad for new players that get introduced to EDH or Magic and than have to play there first games vs Braids.

- Even build in a casual way (that focuses on here) she probably is extremely hard to handel for other casual decks. Especially for decks that are realy linear, like some builds of mono green and that are often decks that in my experience get played from new players.

The normal state of house rules and Braids:

- I have played with a lot of diffrent people casual EDH offline and online. What every casual play group i ever played with had in common that one house rule was no (mass) land destruction. That would already exclude Braids from a lot of casual play groups. I know sutch and generalisation can't be made for every casualplay groupe, but if your play group is okay with a deck that plays Ruination,Armageddon,Blood Moon, Back to Basics and Mana Vortex i don't think a Mono B deck with braids is "worse" (I personly don't think these decks are Bad or unfun).

What would Braids give positive for EDH?

- First I want to say if you absolutely hate Stax and everything Stax does. Not only hate to play against but also play it, hate it on a personal! level (maybe deep down you know a hate like that might be a bit unreasonable). Braids will absolutely not bring anything positive to EDH for a player like that. But that's not why a card should be banned since other people might really love to play or play against it.

- Braids opens a "new" play style for more high powered EDH games. In my play group games tend to end on game 4-5, Combo decks are omnipresent. Control/Stax decks are hanging behind. You are either to slow, can handel only that many "repetitive" combo pieces and a lot combo decks do even have the space to play a little bit of counter magic them self. Decks that suffer from Braids in these groups are Decks that have zero interaction, that just sid there and than win.

- At this point I have to admit I don't read the entire 10 Sides discusion, but a common argument was "If Braids gets droped consistent on turn 3, the table loses if they can't remove/counter here". Now I have to say I don't think that is realy a valid argument since you loses vs a lot of decks if you can't interact with them in turn 3-4.

- The last point probably does probably not influence a unban decision but braids would allow to play control/stax on a smaller budget, because if play in a higher powered playgrp (and i don't even mean super competitive here) you really need to get the expensive cards for interaction (FoW, Flusterstorm etc).

I hope I did not repeat points that already got argurt over and wish you all a nice day!


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 10:13 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Welcome to the forums DigitalPsycho, always good to have new voices to add to our discussions.

While I dont disagree with the points you have made, I dont think the context is entirely appropriate for the average commander player. Your main points highlight that the meta you are in, have fairly highly tuned decks and a lot of combo decks which are ending the game on turn 4-5 on a regular basis. I dont believe this is the experience that most players have, and in my experience of reading articles from Sheldon, as well as posts on this forum, I can fairly confidently assert that the average expectation for a commander game is for the turns to make it close to double digits.

In a world where people are doing their best to win in the first 5 turns, Braids would be pretty mundane. I just dont think that's the world the rules committee want to build towards.

The negatives to braids is that a lot of the time, she simply stops people playing the game. The strategy she encourages, the stax game plan is to stop people playing, and preventing others from engaging in the game is not really a friendly or casual way to go about playing. It's not so bad if the game is over in 5 turns, but if I have to sit around for 8 turns without the ability to play, Im not going to have a good time.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 1:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
So your argument for unbanning her is that when built around casually she's comparable to very competitive decks that require interaction on turn 3 and that's ok? What happens when she's built around competitively? She requires interaction on turn 1-2 at that point. That's too fast for Legacy. How can that be acceptable in Commander?

You can't compare a "casual build" of her to competitive builds of other decks. ZERO casual decks win on turn 3-4 reliably. They may win reliably on turns 5-7 with some god hands that win earlier but that's an entirely different ball game. Braids reliably locks the game down before players can play their third lands even when just built around "casually".

I'm actually a fan of stax but she's far too powerful to be in the command zone.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 5:46 am 

Joined: 2016-Jul-12 7:25 pm
Age: Hatchling
Thank you specter404 for your kind words!

I do understand that maybe the rules committee has a different view on EDH than I do. That is also perfectly fine since everybody can have the view on the world how they like.

Maybe i'm a oddball I'm not going to deny it. But i love to play Stax and also vs it and think midrange decks are extremely boring for magic. But having a good time is different for different people. I don't think if a person has a "good time" or not should be a factor for a ban, since you are going to police what people have to believe is fun and what is not.

You are completely correct in the point that if you pick up Braids there is (probably) only one way to build here. She is not like other commanders were you could build stax or not, she will always be stax.
This is something personal I have experienced in casual play groups if a player concedes it is frowned upon or seen as a "bad" way to end a game. But I think that is just a natural part of Magic, if you lost just concedie and move to the next game. There does not need to remain a "bitter taste" only because the game was concedied. If you know you lost there is no need to wait it out for the bitter end.


Epsilon wrote:
She requires interaction on turn 1-2 at that point. That's too fast for Legacy. How can that be acceptable in Commander?


I'm a hardcore legacy player. I play way more legacy than everything else in magic. Do you really think turn 1-2 interaction is to fast for Legacy?

    Storm
    Show and Tell
    Belcher
    High Tide
    All my Spells
    Infect
    Lands
    Dredge
    Elves

While this are all decks that can win on turn 1-2, that does not even count the decks you have to have interaction on turn 2 or you might just lose.
The Format plays turn 0 interaction and a LOT turn 1 and 2 interaction!

Legacy can easy! handel braids or turn 1-2 combo decks!

But it is totally unimportant what Legacy can or can not do, because that has nothing to do with EDH.

I don't want to make this about if EDH = Legacy or not.


Epsilon wrote:
So your argument for unbanning her is that when built around casually she's comparable to very competitive decks that require interaction on turn 3 and that's ok?


No that was not my argument at all.

If you would have read what I said is:

Digitalpsycho wrote:
Even build in a casual way (that focuses on here) she probably is extremely hard to handel for other casual decks.


I listed that as the main problem for Braids, if you pick here up vs Casual decks you are probably going to win easy vs them. Because she punishes slow, linear and low/weak interaction decks and if we are honest Casual decks are not filled with the best removal/solutions.

Epsilon wrote:
You can't compare a "casual build" of her to competitive builds of other decks.


Also I have not done this.

What I said is that there exist high powered EDH Metas and Control/Stax is lagging behind in these metas. And it should not be ignored that some people (like me :oops: ) are "locked" out to play there favored strategy because it can't comped.
Braids has some problems because she is easy to pick up cheap to build and than will crush a meta but in a other meta she is totally fine. And those metas should not be ignored.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 6:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
DigitalPsycho wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
She requires interaction on turn 1-2 at that point. That's too fast for Legacy. How can that be acceptable in Commander?


I'm a hardcore legacy player. I play way more legacy than everything else in magic. Do you really think turn 1-2 interaction is to fast for Legacy?

    Storm
    Show and Tell
    Belcher
    High Tide
    All my Spells
    Infect
    Lands
    Dredge
    Elves

While this are all decks that can win on turn 1-2, that does not even count the decks you have to have interaction on turn 2 or you might just lose.
The Format plays turn 0 interaction and a LOT turn 1 and 2 interaction!

Legacy can easy! handel braids or turn 1-2 combo decks!

But it is totally unimportant what Legacy can or can not do, because that has nothing to do with EDH.

I don't want to make this about if EDH = Legacy or not.


Anything that consistently wins turn 1 gets banned in Legacy. Nut draws and consistent draws are very different.



Quote:
Epsilon wrote:
So your argument for unbanning her is that when built around casually she's comparable to very competitive decks that require interaction on turn 3 and that's ok?


No that was not my argument at all.

If you would have read what I said is:

Digitalpsycho wrote:
Even build in a casual way (that focuses on here) she probably is extremely hard to handel for other casual decks.


I listed that as the main problem for Braids, if you pick here up vs Casual decks you are probably going to destroy them. Because she punishes linear, low/weak interaction decks and if we are honest Casual decks are not filled with the best removal/solutions.


You listed the same thing as a "problem" for her and in your "why she's beneficial" sections.

Casual != weak. A casual deck has access to the same removal as competitive decks. They may not play the uber expensive options but Swords/Path and the like are not prohibitively expensive. Regardless, it is still a highlander format. Unless you're going to "require" players to include 13+ removal spells that cost 2 or less to guarantee they have an answer to her by the time she comes out, she's not safe to be unbanned. If you're wanting to move away from the "combo is king" meta, you need to get away from requiring twice as many answers as threats mentality which Braids reaffirms.

Quote:
Epsilon wrote:
You can't compare a "casual build" of her to competitive builds of other decks.


Also I have not done this.

What I said is that there exist high powered EDH Metas and Control/Stax is lagging behind in these metas. And it should not be ignored that some people (like me :oops: ) are "locked" out to play there favored strategy because it can't comped.
Braids has some problems because she is easy to pick up cheap to build and than will crush a meta but in a other meta she is totally fine. And those metas should not be ignored.


You have done this. Any deck that requires interaction on turn 3-4 or you lose is not a casual deck. You're saying even built casually she will lock the game on turn 3 but that's not a valid argument because plenty of decks do that already. Even built casually she's as or more dangerous than most competitive decks... but you want her unbanned cause stax is weak right now?

Competitive decks and metas are not at all taken into consideration for ban list decisions. None of your reasons for "why she's good for the format" are even reasons. She's good for the format because "if you don't hate stax in your bones" she's fine? She's good for the format because the main reason she's banned isn't valid when compared casually to competitive decks? She's good for the format because stax needs to be stronger in competitive metas? I realize English is likely a second language but your arguments aren't making sense.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 9:03 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
DigitalPsycho wrote:
What I said is that there exist high powered EDH Metas and Control/Stax is lagging behind in these metas. And it should not be ignored that some people (like me :oops: ) are "locked" out to play there favored strategy because it can't comped.
Braids has some problems because she is easy to pick up cheap to build and than will crush a meta but in a other meta she is totally fine. And those metas should not be ignored.


I certainly agree that high powered metas exist, we have had a few people on this forum coming from cutthroat metas. While those are not "ignored" per-se, they are not catered for within the standard ban list. The philosophy document, found over here: http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254

Has a paragraph which reads:
Quote:
The Rules Committee's goal for Commander is for it to be different than other Magic games. Where competitive formats seek to balance the playing field for all styles and strategies, we want to encourage a style of game that is more open and directed towards all players having a good time regardless of who wins. This is summarized as “Create games that you’d love to remember, not the ones others would like to forget.”


This outlines pretty clearly that the RC is not interested in allowed all strategies to have an even chance. They want to create a play experience which encourages everyone to be involved and having a good time. A few people may enjoying playing with and against stax, but that is not the commonly held opinion and so based on this Braids is banned.

Now you may disagree with the philosophy, that the RC should not be balancing based on people having fun, you said above you feel that is too subjective, but your disagreement needs to be with the philosophy document. Braids is banned because of the philosophy, and so to challenge that banning you need to challenge the part of the document that is causing it.

That said, the philosophy is obviously very central to everything in EDH, so it may be worth having a good read through it. The last paragraph I think is particularly relevant, as it discusses that what works for a broader audience doesn't necessarily work locally and you are encouraged to change things at the local level if you think your groups would be better suited that way.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-31 7:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Nov-30 1:35 am
Age: Hatchling
Really the problem with Braids is her as a Commander. She is not broken in the 99. That the all great committee thought it was too confusing to have banned as a commander only is the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-31 10:23 am 
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As I mentioned, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing her unbanned because I can build a fun Braids deck centering around black control that emphasizes her sadistic nature. I mean of course if we allow Kaalia of the vast to remain Unbanned, Whats to say braids can't be unbanned (I am being sarcastic though Braids would be a welcome counter to Kaalia).

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-31 10:56 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
As I mentioned, personally, I wouldn't mind seeing her unbanned because I can build a fun Braids deck centering around black control that emphasizes her sadistic nature. I mean of course if we allow Kaalia of the vast to remain Unbanned, Whats to say braids can't be unbanned (I am being sarcastic though Braids would be a welcome counter to Kaalia).

Braids is not a counter to Kaalia. She's a counter to anyone having fun ever. She's also vastly more oppressive than Kaalia will ever be. Saying you can build a fun braids deck is like saying you can bake an edible cyanide pie. No you can't.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-31 11:26 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Would cyanide pie taste like almonds?

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-31 3:11 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Would cyanide pie taste like almonds?

Well, scent and taste are closely related, so I'd have to say yes. Let's feed it to Braids and she can tell us.

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