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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-15 12:24 pm 
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tgambitg wrote:
I really don't think the banning criteria needs to change, personally... The banlist is currently where it needs to be. As new cards are printed, I'm sure the RC examines each card in the list, compared with new cards and either makes a determination (like "Yeah, Emrakul stays banned") or puts a card on a mental watch list.

That being said, the only card that is not currently banned that I would love to see banned is Deadeye Navigator, though I understand why it is not. While annoying, it isn't used enough to be a real problem.

As an aside to that though, I wouldn't be upset if every copy of DEN was assembled into one place and that place just happened to immolate.


Or least some cards that are banned need to be re-evaluated because some of them aren't worth being on the banlist, besides most players would have either forgotten about them or found ways around it.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-15 12:27 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
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RaiRai wrote:
Or least some cards that are banned need to be re-evaluated because some of them aren't worth being on the banlist, besides most players would have either forgotten about them or found ways around it.


Both of these are terrible reasons to unban a card. Like, really, really awful.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-15 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Or least some cards that are banned need to be re-evaluated because some of them aren't worth being on the banlist, besides most players would have either forgotten about them or found ways around it.


Hey guys, he's solved it for us. All this time we've been just putting cards on the list and locking them away forever. If only there was some mechanism by which cards could come off the list. Like a panel or perhaps a rules committee which could regularly meet and consider the cards and how things have changed. Then they could remove cards from the list which were no longer problematic.

Things like Kokusho, LED, World gorger dragon, metal worker, grindstone, rift sweeper. These cards should have a way to re-enter the format.

Oh wait:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/search.php?keywords=unbanned&terms=all&author=&fid%5B%5D=1&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-15 4:51 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Or least some cards that are banned need to be re-evaluated because some of them aren't worth being on the banlist, besides most players would have either forgotten about them or found ways around it.
You think Black Braids should be unbanned and Vampire Hexmage banned. I think you need to reexamine the ban criteria that exist now. Your proposal isnt anywhere close to something most people would want, and people don't 'forget' about cards that are/were banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 2:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm not sure RaiRai was actually advocating for a ban of Hexmage as much as using it as an example of a card with some (I mean 1) obnoxious interactions.

But maybe I'm wrong in my evaluation of RaiRai.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 2:38 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
RaiRai wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
I really don't think the banning criteria needs to change, personally... The banlist is currently where it needs to be. As new cards are printed, I'm sure the RC examines each card in the list, compared with new cards and either makes a determination (like "Yeah, Emrakul stays banned") or puts a card on a mental watch list.

That being said, the only card that is not currently banned that I would love to see banned is Deadeye Navigator, though I understand why it is not. While annoying, it isn't used enough to be a real problem.

As an aside to that though, I wouldn't be upset if every copy of DEN was assembled into one place and that place just happened to immolate.


Or least some cards that are banned need to be re-evaluated because some of them aren't worth being on the banlist, besides most players would have either forgotten about them or found ways around it.

which ones do you feel are safe to be unbanned?

Looking at the list I think the only ones that could come off are the ones that are on there more to be examples rather than because they were actual problems- like Coalition Victory, Sway the Stars, and Worldfire. But then, those should remain banned in order to be exemplary with house rules covering someone who wants to do a Reaper King coalition victory deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 3:51 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
niheloim wrote:
I'm not sure RaiRai was actually advocating for a ban of Hexmage as much as using it as an example of a card with some (I mean 1) obnoxious interactions.

But maybe I'm wrong in my evaluation of RaiRai.

No, I think you're about right. Probably would have been better to pick an example that's actually ban-worthy, but there ya go.

Side-note here - Dark Depths would probably get banned WAY before Hexmage, since;
A: You can also get all the counters off cheap with stuff like Aether Snap or Hex Parasite, which while not as efficient as Hexmage, are still vastly more efficient than DD on its own.
B: Hexmage is good for things other than Dark Depths, like killing planeswalkers. (As are Aether Snap, Hex Par, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 4:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Honestly, looking over the banlist, in decreasing order of likelihood, here are the cards that COULD come off (not saying should):

Painter's Servant*
Protean Hulk*
Library of Alexandria**
Panoptic Mirror**
Gifts Ungiven
Ancestral Recall
Recurring Nightmare
Fastbond
Sundering Titan
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

The single asterisk denotes something I'd argue should be unbanned, the double denoting something I'd be indifferent to, and the rest I'd oppose but at least see a plausible rationale for unbanning. And the only reason I'd consider unbanning them (if I was on the RC) is because they don't fit the current criteria well, not because there is something wrong with the criteria itself. I'd guess that if it was up to a vote, at least half of this list would be made legal, as well as several cards that seem fun/innocuous but are truly problematic like Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Prophet of Kruphix, and Emrakul.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 4:16 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
...the only reason I'd consider unbanning them (if I was on the RC) is because they don't fit the current criteria well, not because there is something wrong with the criteria itself.

Remember as well that those criteria are just guidelines. They could certainly ban something that doesn't fit those criteria if they felt it was detrimental to the format in some way that the guidelines don't cover.

For all we know, they have extra guidelines that have been created since they last did an article/post about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 9:03 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Carthain wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
...the only reason I'd consider unbanning them (if I was on the RC) is because they don't fit the current criteria well, not because there is something wrong with the criteria itself.

Remember as well that those criteria are just guidelines. They could certainly ban something that doesn't fit those criteria if they felt it was detrimental to the format in some way that the guidelines don't cover.

For all we know, they have extra guidelines that have been created since they last did an article/post about them.


If we developed additional criteria, we'd let everyone know. Seems like the kind of thing we'd want to publicize. There's nothing super secret internally, although I think the other day I saw Toby nearly admitting there's a Watch List.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 9:07 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
...the only reason I'd consider unbanning them (if I was on the RC) is because they don't fit the current criteria well, not because there is something wrong with the criteria itself.

Remember as well that those criteria are just guidelines. They could certainly ban something that doesn't fit those criteria if they felt it was detrimental to the format in some way that the guidelines don't cover.

For all we know, they have extra guidelines that have been created since they last did an article/post about them.


If we developed additional criteria, we'd let everyone know. Seems like the kind of thing we'd want to publicize. There's nothing super secret internally, although I think the other day I saw Toby nearly admitting there's a Watch List.


Watchlist confirmed. Toby is on it apparently. Not sure if creepy...


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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 9:13 am 
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Epsilon wrote:

Watchlist confirmed. Toby is on it apparently. Not sure if creepy...


Not creepy to put Toby on a watch list, since he's a foreigner. :p

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 10:14 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Sheldon wrote:
Not creepy to put Toby on a watch list, since he's a foreigner. :p

That does explain why he is both cold as ice AND willing to sacrifice our love.


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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 10:17 am 
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majikal wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Not creepy to put Toby on a watch list, since he's a foreigner. :p

That does explain why he is both cold as ice AND willing to sacrifice our love.

All you have to do is show him what love is. He wants you to show him.

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 Post subject: Re: Idea for a revised card ban critera
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-16 10:22 am 
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Viperion wrote:
majikal wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
Not creepy to put Toby on a watch list, since he's a foreigner. :p

That does explain why he is both cold as ice AND willing to sacrifice our love.

All you have to do is show him what love is. He wants you to show him.

Then he'll see how urgent our love can be.

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