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 Post subject: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 7:51 am 
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Location: The Blind Eternities
Okay, to contribute a little more positively to the EDH community and hopefully add to some dynamics of the game, I came up with a couple rule ideas:

1. You can only use wish like effects to play cards inside your commanders color identity, and or colorless.

Someone suggested this in another thread and I thought it was a particularly fair idea for a rule since we might be getting new effects like that in the near future. It would also make wish cards playable, like the new Coax from the beyond, as well as others.

2. Devoid provides a Colorless card identity

Not exactly a rule I expect to go through but I and few others would love to make Eldrazi tribal decks with the titans as our commanders. Now you're gonna say "How are you going to produce colored mana in a colorless deck?" welp, its redundantly easy to do so. One drawback to this rule ROE that lack devoid ability and maybe some of Eldritch moon eldrazi, but it would allow for some interestint decks to be constructed.

3. If a player takes extra turns past the current number of players, A: Automatically loses; B: Each player gains additional turn

Something that we've discussed in the forums, and I would like to discuss since decks that rely on produce multiple turns repeatedly gets old quick and is considerably a douche move when another play basically takes 4 additional turns. I don't know what would be fair to compensate for that, which is why I am more along the lines suggesting this.

4. The Terra Firma Mulligan, a player at the start of a game may search for three basic lands at the beginning of the game and draw two cards, and shuffle their deck.

A special mulligan in case for those who are getting repeatedly mana screwed at the start of game. I'm assuming a lot of people have mulligan out or ducked out cause of little to no mana, and its happed to me a number of times even when I have 40 lands. This mulligan would help mitigate the problem of getting land screwed out of a decent starting mana based.


Anyways tell me ya'll what ya think?

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 8:49 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
1. You can only use wish like effects to play cards inside your commanders color identity, and or colorless.

Someone suggested this in another thread and I thought it was a particularly fair idea for a rule since we might be getting new effects like that in the near future. It would also make wish cards playable, like the new Coax from the beyond, as well as others.


You mean Coax From the Blind Eternities, and i don't think one new card like that is really indication of more wish cards. This card represents a very specific and important event.

I don't think a rule that forces people to play with Wishes is very smart. You get your whole collection to choose from and that's obnoxious. Making a list of rules to allow wishes is just tedious and extra work. (color identity, name)

I would be, and i think others/RC would be, far far more likely to support the sideboard rule being a standard feature since that is easier to codify and totally awesome in this format, +++ allows wishes to not only function, but function within some realm of decency and normalcy and solves two larger problems it already has (color identity, name).

Actually, not just more likely, but i'd guarantee i'd support the sideboard rule being standard.

RaiRai wrote:
2. Devoid provides a Colorless card identity

Not exactly a rule I expect to go through but I and few others would love to make Eldrazi tribal decks with the titans as our commanders. Now you're gonna say "How are you going to produce colored mana in a colorless deck?" welp, its redundantly easy to do so. One drawback to this rule ROE that lack devoid ability and maybe some of Eldritch moon eldrazi, but it would allow for some interestint decks to be constructed.


I don't think a format should ever make a rule that specifically caters to one keyword.

How many ways are there to make colored mana in a colorless deck? Honestly curious. I can only think of 6, and 6 is not a lot if you're playing 4c (Displacer doesn't count as a whole color) tribal decks. And only just 1 of those 6 actually gives a color ability to other permanents as well.

Why is the devoid-less ROE Eldrazi a drawback? They are already colorless. I don't think anything about proposed rule change makes them more or less playable mechanically than they already are. They can still go in any color or colorless deck.

Its sad there is no 5c Eldrazi Legend but there should not be a rule made for them just because it's sad. The card require colored mana on purpose, they should only be cast by commanders who are of/use red mana. They are just physically colorless because they are weird Blind Eternity horrors emulating life forms of color's abilities. That is to say, to me, it makes more sense flavorfully that they remain colored in identity.

RaiRai wrote:
3. If a player takes extra turns past the current number of players, A: Automatically loses; B: Each player gains additional turn

Something that we've discussed in the forums, and I would like to discuss since decks that rely on produce multiple turns repeatedly gets old quick and is considerably a douche move when another play basically takes 4 additional turns. I don't know what would be fair to compensate for that, which is why I am more along the lines suggesting this.


This comes up often online and i don't get it, probably because i have never seen this in person except once and i am pretty vocal if someone is blatantly being a griefer dickbag. If infinite extra turns is their wincon, then just concede once it starts. If it's not, then just have a chat with him about how shitty boring it is and you guys are tired of thumbing your pecker under the table waiting for him to be done thumbing his pecker on the table.
I'm honestly just presuming you have not already talked to him but if you have, then step 2 is everyone else needs to throw everything at this person until they are dead from turn 1 every single time. Seriously, you don't have to talk behind his back or try to silently communicate. Just sit at the table and ask "do we really like this? are we going to go easy on him the beginning of every game to see if something changes? let's just make a dumb rule - if this player loses first the rest of 3 each get to draw 7 cards and move on with our lives". He can and should know you guys are ready to just totally machine gun all your resources on devastating him.
Even if your decks are all $30 and his is OP $200 (lol, i'm still poking fun at you man, i mean no offense though) there are more than enough cards in all of magic in any combo of colors to make this person FUCKING TIRED of trying to play that deck. They'll quit or be miserable. If really all else fails and you guys CAN'T archenemy him, then i 100% suggest you look at all the other players and just say "honestly, you guys just wanna play without him?" and yeah it might be hurtful or tactless but there's no reason for people to suffer for someone else to have fun.

Or unless, you know, you're the only who cares about his deck. idk

Extra turns is so far from a problem i can't even explain. There will never be a rule about it because it's so not the meta. Nor should there ever be a rule against it. Those cards exist for a reason. Sooner than making a garbage rule specifically calling out a function in magic i think if ANYTHING the RC would just sooner ban like the best HALF of extra turn cards, which is still a terrible option as well, to be honest.

Everyone pack Stranglehold and Ugin's Nexus and then just jam everything sideways at him every turn and spend every removal on even crappy 3cmc utility creatures and counterspells on ANYTHING he plays.

RaiRai wrote:
4. The Terra Firma Mulligan, a player at the start of a game may search for three basic lands at the beginning of the game and draw two cards, and shuffle their deck.

A special mulligan in case for those who are getting repeatedly mana screwed at the start of game. I'm assuming a lot of people have mulligan out or ducked out cause of little to no mana, and its happed to me a number of times even when I have 40 lands. This mulligan would help mitigate the problem of getting land screwed out of a decent starting mana based.


This is not going to happen since this format was recently moved to not having a special mulligan bu rather the same mulligan as all other formats.

I don't think it's a good idea anyway. There are a number of ways to abuse this:
--Why even have 40 lands if you guarantee you start with 3? Then you actually want to play less, i think, which rewards POOR deckbuilding design.
--This hugely favors low cmc commanders, especially those that run on less resources as well and don't need a lot of support cards.
--Decks that don't play basic lands don't even get the option. I mean, you generally SHOULD play with basic lands, but that does not mean you should be discriminated against if you don't.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 8:53 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Okay, to contribute a little more positively to the EDH community and hopefully add to some dynamics of the game, I came up with a couple rule ideas:

1. You can only use wish like effects to play cards inside your commanders color identity, and or colorless.

Someone suggested this in another thread and I thought it was a particularly fair idea for a rule since we might be getting new effects like that in the near future. It would also make wish cards playable, like the new Coax from the beyond, as well as others.


You know wishes don't work in commander without group permission? This is a great house rule, but not relevant to commander unless the wish rule (13?) changes first.
Quote:
2. Devoid provides a Colorless card identity

Not exactly a rule I expect to go through but I and few others would love to make Eldrazi tribal decks with the titans as our commanders. Now you're gonna say "How are you going to produce colored mana in a colorless deck?" welp, its redundantly easy to do so. One drawback to this rule ROE that lack devoid ability and maybe some of Eldritch moon eldrazi, but it would allow for some interestint decks to be constructed.


This causes weirdness like running World Breaker in Oloro or Site of Stagnation in Gitrog. Besides, you're overestimating the ease of producing off color mana consistently. NB: You're using "redundantly" in a way that makes English teachers everywhere clutch their chests with pain.

Quote:
3. If a player takes extra turns past the current number of players, A: Automatically loses; B: Each player gains additional turn

Something that we've discussed in the forums, and I would like to discuss since decks that rely on produce multiple turns repeatedly gets old quick and is considerably a douche move when another play basically takes 4 additional turns. I don't know what would be fair to compensate for that, which is why I am more along the lines suggesting this.

Why does everyone get another turn of the offending player has lost? Also, Platinum Angel is a thing. The RC has traditionally been opposed to format level errata in the past, aside from the basic deck construction rules like CI that define the format.

Quote:
4. The Terra Firma Mulligan, a player at the start of a game may search for three basic lands at the beginning of the game and draw two cards, and shuffle their deck.

A special mulligan in case for those who are getting repeatedly mana screwed at the start of game. I'm assuming a lot of people have mulligan out or ducked out cause of little to no mana, and its happed to me a number of times even when I have 40 lands. This mulligan would help mitigate the problem of getting land screwed out of a decent starting mana based.


Variance happens. This is why commander has pretty lax standards on mulligans.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 9:06 am 
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Actually sideboarding in commander should be a thing which is agreeable in most conditions, and with my Kruphix deck, I'd would be nice to have Ulamog and other eldrazi sitting on the sidelines then use Spawnsire of Ulamog to bring em in

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 9:10 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Tha main problem with the devoid rule is that actually writing a rule for it would be fairly inelegant. I dont mind too much but the value of such a rule is limited, unless you are already playing those colours you need multicoloured rocks to do it, which seems like a pretty niche application. Rules should be kept as simple as possible and adding exceptions to rules adds unneeded complexity.

Extra turns are part of the game, is someone wants to take infinite turns, good on them, I usually just take out my phone and ask them to let me know when they are done playing with themselves. Any attempt to stop them results in effectively banning half a dozen cards. Some people hate extra turns, some people like to play solitaire, let them play their time walks and just go play another game with everyone else while they take all the turns.

More mulligans rules are unnecessary. If your group want to use your land mulligan all good, but the reason we dont use partial paris anymore was to bring us in line with every other magic format, I dont see that changing.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 9:39 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
Actually sideboarding in commander should be a thing which is agreeable in most conditions

No, not really. Sideboarding is something you do in competitive formats, to shore up your deck against a specific matchup. Sideboarding in a multiplayer format doesn't really work out so well - you're not going to be able to board against everyone in most games anyways (unless all your opponents are playing the same deck type), and frankly if your deck needs help against a certain strategy, you should probably just maindeck that help.

The only real purpose for sideboards is as a wishboard, and frankly I'm not a fan of that idea either - you're essentially cheating on the maximum deck size.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 9:49 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I was worried, bit now I recognize RaiRai as the comedic genius that zhe (not a typo, look it up) is.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 10:32 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
How many ways are there to make colored mana in a colorless deck? Honestly curious. I can only think of 6,
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few dozen. A quick Gatherer search puts that number at 65 (66 if you are casting Devoid, Multicolor, Ally, Dragon, Elemental, or Sliver spells).

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 11:01 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
How many ways are there to make colored mana in a colorless deck? Honestly curious. I can only think of 6,
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few dozen. A quick Gatherer search puts that number at 65 (66 if you are casting Devoid, Multicolor, Ally, Dragon, Elemental, or Sliver spells).


How many don't require sac/2+ mana/other costs? Your numbers appear to be correct, but the vast majority are pretty bad. Regardless, my point about off-color devoid cards stands. Is that a door we want to open?

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 11:17 am 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Willbender wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
How many ways are there to make colored mana in a colorless deck? Honestly curious. I can only think of 6,
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few dozen. A quick Gatherer search puts that number at 65 (66 if you are casting Devoid, Multicolor, Ally, Dragon, Elemental, or Sliver spells).
How many don't require sac/2+ mana/other costs? Your numbers appear to be correct, but the vast majority are pretty bad.
5 creatures (4 of them decently costed), 16 artifacts/lands with little/no downside, and 23 more with minor downsides (filter 1 mana, pay 1 life, etc.). That's over half of the options, so really, the vast majority are not bad.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Regardless, my point about off-color devoid cards stands. Is that a door we want to open?
No, it isn't. If EDH doesn't allow either/or color on the split mana symbols, we shouldn't rewrite the rules to put Devoid in more decks, either.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 12:31 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
You know wishes don't work in commander without group permission? This is a great house rule, but not relevant to commander unless the wish rule (13?) changes first.
He knows, he's trying to add it in and didn't word it to indicate he knows.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Why does everyone get another turn of the offending player has lost?
He means one or the other, not both.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
This is why commander has pretty lax standards on mulligans.

No it doesn't, it has pretty clear rules about which mulligan this format uses. That it is the least they wish to be strict on doesn't mean you can always get extra free mulls or house rule whatever you personally want. Most places and groups i've been have not done house rules and use the standard mulligan, which is good because sitting down for games with randoms and having to learn new rules every time is bonk. It actually seems to be the reason this format now uses the same as traditional formats.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
No, not really. Sideboarding is something you do in competitive formats, to shore up your deck against a specific matchup. Sideboarding in a multiplayer format doesn't really work out so well - you're not going to be able to board against everyone in most games anyways (unless all your opponents are playing the same deck type), and frankly if your deck needs help against a certain strategy, you should probably just maindeck that help.

The only real purpose for sideboards is as a wishboard, and frankly I'm not a fan of that idea either - you're essentially cheating on the maximum deck size.

Why does it have to be competitive for it to make sense? I mean this format is still a competition.

You don't need to sideboard against all other 3 players. Maybe you need a little edge on one, like someone playing Daetti and you want 2 extra artifact removals. Maybe Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace wreck a meta you play in but against some handfuls of people don't do anything. Yea it's two dead cards (only in this example) but you shouldn't have to have silver bullet cards that are always cool in some groups and way too specific in others.

I love it for those reasons, but my actual big one is there are some cards that are basically terrible 1v1 but awesome 1v1v1v1 and vice versa. I have considered i might have a small hand of cards i ask if i can switch out because of their loss in function 1v1 and i don't foresee any problem with since it's sb material but dependent on the 'format' of commander i'm playing. I only decided against it because i am already really far into 100% altering my deck and decided i didn't want to have extra alters i didn't always get to use.

Willbender wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
How many ways are there to make colored mana in a colorless deck? Honestly curious. I can only think of 6,
Off the top of my head, I can think of a few dozen. A quick Gatherer search puts that number at 65 (66 if you are casting Devoid, Multicolor, Ally, Dragon, Elemental, or Sliver spells).

I forgot about 5c lands and was thinking of artifacts. What was your search parameter?

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Regardless, my point about off-color devoid cards stands. Is that a door we want to open?

I don't think either of us were refuting your point. What i said was in response to RaiRai and what he said was in response to that, so. But the thing i forgot is about the colorless identity just allowing all those weirdo color abilities in off-color decks.

Willbender wrote:
If EDH doesn't allow either/or color on the split mana symbols, we shouldn't rewrite the rules to put Devoid in more decks, either.

Exactly, both are garbage. Haha.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 1:36 pm 
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Sovarius wrote:
I forgot about 5c lands and was thinking of artifacts. What was your search parameter?
Advanced Search: Color = Colorless; Text = "any color" (with quotes).
Code:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+["any%20color"]&color=+[C]
You get a few things that don't apply, but most of it is what you're looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 2:22 pm 
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We got rid of the sideboard optional rule. Don't expect it to come back. I can't refute the argument "well, I could use a sideboard to do <this>." You're right, you could. If sideboards were legal.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-21 3:06 pm 
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Sheldon wrote:
We got rid of the sideboard optional rule. Don't expect it to come back. I can't refute the argument "well, I could use a sideboard to do <this>." You're right, you could. If sideboards were legal.


I feel like Sheldon has been more assertive lately. Maybe it's just me.

Sovarius wrote:
Why does it have to be competitive for it to make sense? I mean this format is still a competition.

EDH is a competition in that it's a game, which by definition means there are winners and losers and yadda yadda yadda... but introducing sideboarding is a fundamental shift toward cutthroat play and anti-social behavior, because most people aren't just going to run "a few more answers" or what have - those sideboard slots are precious, and will likely be filled with the most obnoxiously powerful answers to specific situations the player has access to. And naturally, that encourages more tutors/wishes to find said silver bullets...

I'm not saying every single player would behave this way, but many would, and it would have an effect on the community as a whole. Plus, like I said, it's kinda cheating on the whole "100 card limit" thing, which I don't like. It feels like not running wishes would put you at a disadvantage in some ways, because your opponent who does would have more options than you do.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-22 2:41 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
We got rid of the sideboard optional rule. Don't expect it to come back. I can't refute the argument "well, I could use a sideboard to do <this>." You're right, you could. If sideboards were legal.


I feel like Sheldon has been more assertive lately. Maybe it's just me.

Sovarius wrote:
Why does it have to be competitive for it to make sense? I mean this format is still a competition.

EDH is a competition in that it's a game, which by definition means there are winners and losers and yadda yadda yadda... but introducing sideboarding is a fundamental shift toward cutthroat play and anti-social behavior, because most people aren't just going to run "a few more answers" or what have - those sideboard slots are precious, and will likely be filled with the most obnoxiously powerful answers to specific situations the player has access to. And naturally, that encourages more tutors/wishes to find said silver bullets...

I'm not saying every single player would behave this way, but many would, and it would have an effect on the community as a whole. Plus, like I said, it's kinda cheating on the whole "100 card limit" thing, which I don't like. It feels like not running wishes would put you at a disadvantage in some ways, because your opponent who does would have more options than you do.


Maybe I'm just being more succinct. I'm given to understand that brevity is the soul of wit. :)

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