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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-23 2:40 am 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
As I've been running a "wishboard" for a couple years now, I can say from my own experiences, adding sideboards has a greater chance of hurting the format versus promoting it.

First, let me reiterate my personal view of the rules. In my opinion, the rules should cater towards an optimal first impression, that is, a player should be able to watch/play a game and understand what it's about and how it works. It should be enjoyable and fun experience for the average player.

Though sideboards in and of themselves are not overly complex, they add another layer to the rules, one I'd argue is unnecessary. In addition to the added layer of rules, and probably most egregious, sideboards encourage the use of hosers.

My original justification for running wishes was that the theme of my deck didn't provide enough removal. I run many cascade cards, miracles, Fact or Fiction effects, Unexpected Results, Guided Passage, Knowledge Exploitation, Bribery, Djinn of Wishes, Temporal Aperture... you get the point. Unfortunately landing an X-spell with some of those is a real feel bad moment. So I put my Epic Experiment and Villainous Wealth in the wishboard because cascading into a wish is infinitely better. And "Wishing" is on theme with Djinn of Wishes, Miracles, and so on.

In my deck, wishes are "charms" where every mode is a blow-out. Granted I play three of them in a 5-color deck (Buring, Cunning, and Glittering Wish) which provides me frequent access to many hoser cards, even in a mono-red deck, there are enough hoser red sorceries to make Burning Wish an auto-include for the majority of decks. In my own deck, the notable hoser cards are Fracturing Gusts (Artifacts/Enchantments), Rakdos Charm (Tokens/Graveyards), Merciless Eviction (Any non-land permanent theme), and Identity Crisis (self-explanatory). And they are not just a one time use. Once out of the sideboard, they can be recurred, reused, recycled.

This is the problem. For Mr. Mirrodin who built his artifact-theme deck, he's going to have a tough time against Gusts and Eviction. Mr. Reanimator isn't going to enjoy a Rakdos Charm and/or Identity Crisis. So for a new player who built this awesome theme deck and goes to battle only to get blown out by cards that aren't even part of his opponent's deck, how does he feel now? Yes, I understand all these cards are fine main deck inclusions, but my point is that "Wishboards" provide the flexibility to play corner case cards without hindering the natural gameplay of the main deck. Wishboards are powerful, often times unfun for opponents, and most certainly, unnecessary for a pickup game of EDH.

I'm lucky enough to have a playgroup that allows me to have a wishboard for my favorite deck, but I wouldn't recommend it for the general MTG population.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 4:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
but introducing sideboarding is a fundamental shift toward cutthroat play and anti-social behavior, because most people aren't just going to run "a few more answers" or what have - those sideboard slots are precious, and will likely be filled with the most obnoxiously powerful answers to specific situations the player has access to. And naturally, that encourages more tutors/wishes to find said silver bullets... I'm not saying every single player would behave this way, but many would, and it would have an effect on the community as a whole.

Why would that be more cutthroat over what we have now, or what individual groups play now? You can just play the cutthroat cards in your 99 already (if you want) so i don't understand what happens in a players mind to change this. I mean you change your deck when you go home (or at the store actually) to add silver bullets for people you regularly play or archetypes you regularly play against. This is very similar, it just gives you less poor draws when certain types cards aren't needed. Changing up your deck before you go to the shop knowing who you're going to play against is the same or worse already, though i would readily agree probably few people bother to do this if they play against 13 people rather than 3. The social contract all but explicitly says (does explicitly say *anything*? haha) you should tune your deck to be the powerlevel of your group and sideboards actually could much easier facilitate that. I mean it takes like no time to even switch 10 cards if you're sleeving your sb and have a plan to take out certain 'competitive' cards (like excess tutors or op counterspells or stax effects)

Yea, silver bullets go in the sideboard. And change them out for other general answers or other silver bullets in the deck. I mean if someone's playing a graveyard deck, or worse - two people are, then you want a Spellbomb and a RiP, and those are fair answers for you to access to in order to not get rekt by certain absurd situations like cheating 9-mana creatures out for 3 mana.
If you play with such large groups of people (i don't mean 8 player games, but i mean there's 13 people at your regular shop you could play against randomly for funsies when a pod opens) and there's normally no graveyard decks, you don't want to play Faerie Macabre or something.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Plus, like I said, it's kinda cheating on the whole "100 card limit" thing, which I don't like. It feels like not running wishes would put you at a disadvantage in some ways, because your opponent who does would have more options than you do.

There's not a huge list of great wishes, some are kind of bad, and generally there's only a couple to be played per color combo. There's 10 whole cards that refer to outside the game and that includes Spawnsire and Collector Protector (which is not legal) and the new Eldrazi Wish.

Honestly, if it weren't for some other reason i presume we aren't going to hear about (or maybe it's actually this), a rule could be made to make wishes not function. Which, they already effectively do, since "outside the game" is your collection outside of sanctioned/tournament/structured events, right?, and this page says outside the game abilities "do not function in Commander without prior agreement on their scope from the playgroup." So unless you get everyone to agree, they are already soft-banned and therefore it's easy to just say "[Wishes] do not function in commander". Or ban the 10 cards for not playing well with the format like Sway/Wordlfire/Biorhythm/Victory.

I actually am not fond of the idea of wishes functioning for a sideboard where you can swap less cards pre-game because you have tutors for them, but i mostly think that A.) swapping is just better in practice as it doesn't require playing 2 cards and B.) the amount of wishes that would be played is so negligible and unimportant it would be worth having the dynamic of having a sideboard.

It just seems like a lot of good can come from it. And i still seriously don't understand how it makes players cutthroat. You like playing 99 casual cards or deliberately janky mediocre choices, you're just gonna put 10 of those jankies in your sb.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 5:26 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Sovarius wrote:
Why would that be more cutthroat over what we have now, or what individual groups play now? You can just play the cutthroat cards in your 99 already (if you want) so i don't understand what happens in a players mind to change this.

Let's imagine the 10-card sideboard from the old "suggested house rules" or whatever it was called became a permanent real rule. You can have 10 really obnoxious hosers for various decks you might face, and there's basically no cost to do so - facing an artifact deck? Out come your weakest cards and in goes Fracturing Gust or Shatterstorm or Null Rod, etc.

Now consider the current situation - if you want to fill your deck with hosers, that's 10% of your deck (and likely 16% of your non-lands) devoted to hosing other people's decks that you might not even face. That means there's a significant cost to being a griefer - your deck has significantly less slots to spend on its actual strategy (unless your strategy is to be a jerk). You can still run cards to defend against strategies that otherwise wreck you of course, but there's a trade-off.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 5:34 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
American_Kid wrote:
Though sideboards in and of themselves are not overly complex, they add another layer to the rules,
Yea, but virtually every other format has sideboards. Any fnm event is gonna be with sideboards. Standard and limited both have sideboards and (i think i'm definitely right in presuming) are the first types of formats that a person learns to break into. Commander is made to be casual and newbie friendly and, yea, they print precons, but there are already so many extra rules it is a bad idea to start with this, especially if they are a person who is going to be also playing 60 card events.

American_Kid wrote:
one I'd argue is unnecessary.

I read your whole post so don't get mad if i missed the point and just tell me where you said, but *why* are they unnecessary? It looks like your whole post is about the negative and not why they are unnecessary. The default position of virtually all things is they are unnecessary. Sideboards are unnecessary, starting with 40 life is too, and having a graveyard or exile. Having a commander is unnecessary, and having color identity is unnecessary. I don't see why necessary comes into at all, but i totally get you think they're negative.

I am of the mind that being unnecessary is relevant if it does nothing (that is, at least for mtg/edh rules).

American_Kid wrote:
In addition to the added layer of rules, and probably most egregious, sideboards encourage the use of hosers.

They are already pretty good in this format though...

American_Kid wrote:
even in a mono-red deck, there are enough hoser red sorceries to make Burning Wish an auto-include for the majority of decks.

Honestly though, mono-red is terrible and you should play some hosers. Now, you are either the kind of person who plays Ruination or you are not. Ruination is definitely worth running as a regular 99 (if you are that kind of person). If you are, just put it in the 99 cause it's virtually always gonna be good in this format. If you're not, you're not gonna put it in the sideboard either.

American_Kid wrote:
In my own deck, the notable hoser cards are Fracturing Gusts (Artifacts/Enchantments), Rakdos Charm (Tokens/Graveyards), Merciless Eviction (Any non-land permanent theme), and Identity Crisis (self-explanatory).

I don't know Identity Crisis is but i'll check my card tag. Those other 3 are absolutely worth playing in the 99. They're all insanely good.

American_Kid wrote:
And they are not just a one time use. Once out of the sideboard, they can be recurred, reused, recycled.

100% your fault for playing that way. No one told you to recur them repeatedly :facepalm: Not to mention this is irrelevant to sideboards because you can just already do this when they're in the 99.

Not for nothing though man, there are about 10 great cards that can search any one of those 4 cards you mentioned from your deck, and a terrible shitty few that can even do it from your SB (and only 2 that can grab all 4 iirc, and one is Death Wish which is pretty much not good).

American_Kid wrote:
This is the problem. For Mr. Mirrodin who built his artifact-theme deck, he's going to have a tough time against Gusts and Eviction.

Okay but if you play casuals like this, don't run Gusts against them. It doesn't matter if Gusts is in your 99 (it's good enough to be) or SB, you sound like you are describing a dick move. And if Mr Mirrodin can hold his own or he is a threat then Gusts is like no big deal at all.

American_Kid wrote:
Mr. Reanimator isn't going to enjoy a Rakdos Charm and/or Identity Crisis.

So are you actually saying you don't play graveyard hate in case this happens? Also, i looked up identity Crisis and it is incredibly griefy and douchey (since it hits one eprson). I bet Mr Reanimator also doesn't like Rest in Peace bit RiP is totally playable when you don't like gy strategies to get huge creatures for very cheap very early on. So do you not plan for that?

American_Kid wrote:
So for a new player who built this awesome theme deck and goes to battle only to get blown out by cards that aren't even part of his opponent's deck, how does he feel now? Yes, I understand all these cards are fine main deck inclusions

Oh, okay, so you do know. But then my question is why would you not play those cards maindeck? Those were all very flexible and good and you don't need to wait for Mr Mirrodin to play Gusts. Is Mr Mirrodin the only guy you play against where that is good? I mean if your examples were actually total silver bullets and not "charms" i would understand you a lot more.

American_Kid wrote:
my point is that "Wishboards" provide the flexibility to play corner case cards

I'm a harpy so i'm just going to say one more time, those are not corner case cards. Merciless Eviction is awesome if you play any deck that dies against either creatures, or planeswalkers, or artifacts, or enchantments. It has 4 modes dude, it's not corner case. Don't include in the sb/wb if you don't want to play it.

American_Kid wrote:
I'm lucky enough to have a playgroup that allows me to have a wishboard for my favorite deck, but I wouldn't recommend it for the general MTG population.

To be honest with you though, the impression i'm getting is you play like a douchebag. I know that's harsh and it may be hard to believe that i don't mean that insultingly, but honestly, the situations you described are using your flexibility to blowout scrubs. Like wtf.

This pretty much makes me think that you are not a good representative to argue against wishboards because you play like that, and in mind and experiences, i have to seriously doubt that most people would play like that. Seriously, i think it's a mistake for people not to consider Gusts or Eviction for the 99, but then be a person who's like "oh man, 10 more cards and there are like all 3 decent cards in the game that search from sideboards? now i can *finally* play Merciless Eviction"

Also, another side note, you are clearly playing a 5c deck which is awesome and i have 5 of them, but very, very few players in the game are going to have access to just play all of the wish cards ever.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 5:45 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Let's imagine the 10-card sideboard from the old "suggested house rules" or whatever it was called became a permanent real rule. You can have 10 really obnoxious hosers for various decks you might face, and there's basically no cost to do so - facing an artifact deck? Out come your weakest cards and in goes Fracturing Gust or Shatterstorm or Null Rod, etc.

In this case, though, i imagining you want to put in Null Rod - reasonable card to expect to play against if your deck is enough artifacts/enough power level. But you aren't playing against Sedris or Karador this game because those guys left. So +Null Rod, -Rest in Peace.
Yes, it makes you put in a powerful card over your weakest but if we are talking specifically sb-material silver bullets, that seems like a very fine adjustment for powerlevel of decks.

Unless, you're talking about a total casual player with a ton of artifacts, when Null Rodd *actually* would be griefy. Tbh, Null Rod is not a card i would even play in a casual game anyway. If you are someone who plays cards of that dramatic power level (even though it obviously dies to removal) it can just be in your main deck anyway, and you can probably handle a dead card or two because you are that player who uses cards that powerful.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Now consider the current situation - if you want to fill your deck with hosers, that's 10% of your deck (and likely 16% of your non-lands) devoted to hosing other people's decks that you might not even face. That means there's a significant cost to being a griefer - your deck has significantly less slots to spend on its actual strategy (unless your strategy is to be a jerk). You can still run cards to defend against strategies that otherwise wreck you of course, but there's a trade-off.

Isn't griefer in this context really kneejerk overreaction? You should expect to play against cards that hurt your deck. You should know that Gusts is a card when you play an enchantress deck (unless you have reason to believe that the GW specifically opts out of that card because he also thinks it's griefer).

I thought everyone was under the impression a fair amount of removal should be in your deck. I mean if you play NO removal don't you just die to any combo of 2-3 reasonable cards that say "stop doing this"?

I am not talking about being a griefer, which is something you can very easily do without a sideboard (especially because if you are *that guy* you just change your deck at home anyway, plus it's not hard to guess your average chances of facing against certain archetypes), i am talking about maybe you play about 10 silver bullets (which is healthy? idk, i play maybe more like 5 and like 5 more general removal) and maybe 3 are vs graveyard decks but you're playing against Mishra and actually want to board in Unravel the Aether and Deglamer to supplement your Krosan Grip and Beast Within everyone should be playing because you think 2 removals for artis is not enough.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 10:01 am 
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There is one positive upside though, enabling wishes enables greater deck flexibility and allows some decks to adapt to certain situations. Example, say if I were to be playing my Kruphix deck against some others who are using some heavy hittin decks and I have the titans along with some big eldrazi (Except Emrakul Aeons Torn), I use Coax from the Blind Eternities to react to the current board state, especially with shenanigan cards at play.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 1:46 pm 
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@Sovarius: Focusing on specific cards that I named off the cuff as examples is not addressing the point I'm making. I'm not saying you shouldn't run answers and I'm not saying you should expect your opponents not to either. And I explicitly stated that not everyone will be drawn into this trap as well. Sideboards will generally get filled up with narrow situational cards. The things you don't want all the time, but will occasionally bring in against specific decks. Sideboards would let you add cards to your "deck" that are narrow, situational hosers at basically no cost, especially if you're also running wishes to fetch them.

Also, other formats are generally played as matches - best of 3, best of 5, etc. EDH is generally not, so boarding to improve your deck feels out of place on that front too.

@RaiRai: You've stated your Kruphix deck is all about playing eldrazi. You'd much rather have the big ones in your deck, rather than confined to a sideboard. Remember that you would only get one copy of a given card between deck and sideboard, because sideboards don't let you violate restrictions on number of copies of a given card, nor would they allow you to have something otherwise illegal in your deck in the board.

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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 2:43 pm 
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@Sovarius-

My point that sideboards are unnecessary comes from the fact that they haven't been officially part of this format, and the format is successful without them, perhaps better. Including sideboards increase the rules complexity of a fairly complex format. You might think that sideboards are a natural part of other competitive formats, but for players that don't play those formats, or are relatively new to magic, this doesn't help them. And what's the point of having a ten card sideboard if your playing a game that lasts an hour or two? Is someone really going to sideboard cards in against another player after they got beat? What's the point? Spend ten minutes searching your 99 singleton deck for three cards to replace? The vast majority of people won't waste their time. And for those who do, I think they are missing the point of the format anyways.

I totally understand that all the cards I mentioned are fine in the main deck. In fact, I think I even mentioned that in my original post. My point was focused in a situation involving a new player because that is ultimately all that I care about when it comes to the generally accepted rules of this format. I want new players to have fun, to keep the format thriving. But I can't imaginine a new player getting any good Commander vibes where someone pulls a card from "outside of the game" and absolutely hoses the new player's deck. At least if it came from the opponent's deck, it wouldn't feel so much like "cheating" which is essentially how Wishes function, they break a core rule of the game.


Quote:
100% your fault for playing that way.

Quote:
Don't include in the sb/wb if you don't want to play it.

Quote:
Seriously, i think it's a mistake for people not to consider Gusts or Eviction for the 99, but then be a person who's like "oh man, 10 more cards and there are like all 3 decent cards in the game that search from sideboards? now i can *finally* play Merciless Eviction"


But you make the assumption that I do play that way, which I don't for new players or those outside of my playgroup, I would do no such thing because I realize this wouldn't be a positive experience for a new player or a possible new group member.

If I didn't want to include these cards, of course I wouldn't, I'm not an idiot. But all of these cards were chosen for specific reasons to cover particular weakenesses in the themed main deck. I don't want to have access to all of them. Three wishes is all I have to work with, that is it. And quite honestly, the deck is far from spikey (or douchey as your preferred term). It's good, but far from optimal. I doubt you understand how my deck works or my decision process as to why I chose to hide the cards I mentioned in the sideboard. You just assume that I'm a dick, and make dick plays with a dick deck against scrubs.

Quote:
To be honest with you though, the impression i'm getting is you play like a douchebag. I know that's harsh and it may be hard to believe that i don't mean that insultingly, but honestly, the situations you described are using your flexibility to blowout scrubs. Like wtf.


Harsh is right, and yes it is offensive. It doesn't matter whether I believe you are not trying to be insulting or not. And if you consider that someone might take it offensively and choose to say it anyways, that is just as good as an insult. In fact, in some ways worse. And how wrong can you be anyways? Very. I only play that 5-color deck in my playgroup (which can be deduced when I said my playgroup allows me a wishboard). My go to deck at FNMs and other events is Celestial Kirin. How many of those decks do you play against? How many Moonlit Striders or Revered Dead do you see in your games? Not many, I'd wager. So save your hypercriticalness for when you vote in this years election (or an election in your country of origin), where you actually need to determine, based on impressions, who will best serve the country's future. Don't waste it on me please; I'm really not worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 2:12 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
@Sovarius: Focusing on specific cards that I named off the cuff as examples is not addressing the point I'm making. I'm not saying you shouldn't run answers and I'm not saying you should expect your opponents not to either. And I explicitly stated that not everyone will be drawn into this trap as well. Sideboards will generally get filled up with narrow situational cards. The things you don't want all the time, but will occasionally bring in against specific decks. Sideboards would let you add cards to your "deck" that are narrow, situational hosers at basically no cost, especially if you're also running wishes to fetch them.

I didn't understand the point? I mean i responded specifically about Null Rod as my example as well, but then was speaking relatively, and not about just Null Rod but rather how you would swap out silver bullets.

Yea, we both know not everyone will be drawn into any trap because that's true of most situations you can describe... Tbh not sure why you bring this up, it doesn't matter to me. If anything i think you understand even more my position that it's not a big deal since it's not like suddenly everyone would include "griefer" cards". I mean i know you said it and i don't think i'm pretending everyone would, my position is just that a relative few people doing a certain uncouth thing is almost negligible.

Wishes is still something i actually don't like, but i don't think they can be a main or major reason to disallow sideboards, because if sideboards *were*wanted, then Wishes would just be banned. I don't even think that's a small problem. Like i said, this is a format with Wishes already soft banned anyway.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Also, other formats are generally played as matches - best of 3, best of 5, etc. EDH is generally not, so boarding to improve your deck feels out of place on that front too.

This is huge actually and something i assume is a major reason the the format doesn't already include sideboards.

American_Kid wrote:
But you make the assumption that I do play that way, which I don't for new players or those outside of my playgroup, I would do no such thing because I realize this wouldn't be a positive experience for a new player or a possible new group member.

Those were your examples from your deck, i had no real choice previously but to presume you do those things. If you don't, you don't, but it surely sounded to me as if you do those things and that's how you know it's bad for the format.

RaiRai wrote:
I use Coax from the Blind Eternities to react to the current board state, especially with shenanigan cards at play.

What do you even keep in the sideboard to tutor for? I didn't think Eldrazy had a huge list of abilities you didn't already want in the deck.


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 Post subject: Re: A couple minor rule ideas
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 5:26 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
American_Kid wrote:
Though sideboards in and of themselves are not overly complex, they add another layer to the rules,
Yea, but virtually every other format has sideboards. Any fnm event is gonna be with sideboards. Standard and limited both have sideboards and (i think i'm definitely right in presuming) are the first types of formats that a person learns to break into. Commander is made to be casual and newbie friendly and, yea, they print precons, but there are already so many extra rules it is a bad idea to start with this, especially if they are a person who is going to be also playing 60 card events.

Anecdotally, I don't think most people are also going to be playing 60 card events. My understanding is that the number of kitchen table players vastly outnumber people who have a DCI number.


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