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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-02 6:22 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
specter404 wrote:
No part of the Comprehensive rules apply at all before the game starts. out of the game, every card is just overpriced cardboard with no type, colour, mana cost or anything else.

The deck construction rules do :P


Strictly speaking they don't take effect till the game starts. Your 102 card commander deck is only illegal if you try to play a game with it. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-02 10:13 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
112.6m would disagree with your assessment.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-02 11:41 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
In addition to that, "out of the game" is not covered by the rules. The rules for MTG only take effect once the game/tournament have started.

No part of the Comprehensive rules apply at all before the game starts. out of the game, every card is just overpriced cardboard with no type, colour, mana cost or anything else.

Full quote for reference.

Deck construction rules are part of the MTR, not the comprehensive rules. The MTR take effect from the commencement of the tournament (referenced in the first paragraph). Deck construction is referred to but not defined within the Comp rules, so 112.6m isn't applicable until the game or tournament has begun

Also worth mentioning I am considering a game to have "begun" once the players present their decks. In a casual setting, another player can't call you out for playing an illegal deck until you pull that deck out and expect to play with it.

This is of course, an irrelevant and completely academic argument, but I dont see much more going on for the devoid discussion, and I have nothing better to do at work... Oh wait, yes I do, I can go make a coffee.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-02 10:56 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Strictly speaking they don't take effect till the game starts.

You're arguing that murder isn't illegal until you actually do it. Could you technically build a 500 card EDH deck with a mono-red general and nothing but blue and green cards in it? I guess. But you would KNOW it's illegal and so would everyone else.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 1:17 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
specter404 wrote:
Deck construction rules are part of the MTR, not the comprehensive rules. The MTR take effect from the commencement of the tournament (referenced in the first paragraph). Deck construction is referred to but not defined within the Comp rules, so 112.6m isn't applicable until the game or tournament has begun.

Most of the deck construction rules are in the CR. Deck size, sideboard size, four-card limit (and one-card limit for commander), are all there. The MTR just has the rules about what constitute legal cards for a given format.

112.6m literally says, "An ability that modifies the rules for deck construction functions before the game begins." I don't think there is any way to read that ends up saying the rule isn't functioning before the game begins. It only matters once you've actually shuffled up, but it is there all the time.

Sid the Chicken wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Strictly speaking they don't take effect till the game starts.

You're arguing that murder isn't illegal until you actually do it.

This is a good point. Murder is illegal all the time, but no crime has been committed until you actually do it. Well, except the attempted murder that happens once you've started but before you've finished. And maybe the conspiracy to commit murder if you're making a team effort of it.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 3:47 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
To what extent are game rules referring to things outside of the game simply leftovers from the era before Exile zones, Command zones, etc?

Do Characteristic Defining Abilities (or anything for that matter) actually need to say that they are active outside of the game?

I guess so since Glittering Wish cares about such things? eg. a red-blue card with Devoid can't be Glittering Wish'd for

But yeah, the notion that game rules claim to work outside of the game is perhaps a bit strange.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 7:57 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Strictly speaking they don't take effect till the game starts.

You're arguing that murder isn't illegal until you actually do it. Could you technically build a 500 card EDH deck with a mono-red general and nothing but blue and green cards in it? I guess. But you would KNOW it's illegal and so would everyone else.


You would it WILL be illegal, you haven't broken any law until you try to murder someone.

JJackson wrote:
112.6m literally says, "An ability that modifies the rules for deck construction functions before the game begins." I don't think there is any way to read that ends up saying the rule isn't functioning before the game begins. It only matters once you've actually shuffled up, but it is there all the time.


This is why I quoted myself, I argued the CR and MTR do not APPLY until the game starts, rules can have a function outside of the game, their main function is to inform your pregame choices.

You cannot, however, apply a rule until the point at which that rule matters. The rule is must be sober to drive a car. The police can't pull you up while you're halfway through your 5th pint because you are planning to drive home. They cant even stop you while you are stumbling to your car. The first time they can stop you and charge you is the moment you sit in the drivers' seat and put the keys in the ignition.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 9:37 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
specter404 wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Strictly speaking they don't take effect till the game starts.

You're arguing that murder isn't illegal until you actually do it. Could you technically build a 500 card EDH deck with a mono-red general and nothing but blue and green cards in it? I guess. But you would KNOW it's illegal and so would everyone else.


You would it WILL be illegal, you haven't broken any law until you try to murder someone.

JJackson wrote:
112.6m literally says, "An ability that modifies the rules for deck construction functions before the game begins." I don't think there is any way to read that ends up saying the rule isn't functioning before the game begins. It only matters once you've actually shuffled up, but it is there all the time.


This is why I quoted myself, I argued the CR and MTR do not APPLY until the game starts, rules can have a function outside of the game, their main function is to inform your pregame choices.

You cannot, however, apply a rule until the point at which that rule matters. The rule is must be sober to drive a car. The police can't pull you up while you're halfway through your 5th pint because you are planning to drive home. They cant even stop you while you are stumbling to your car. The first time they can stop you and charge you is the moment you sit in the drivers' seat and put the keys in the ignition.

Right. That is the first point there is actually an infraction happening. Drunk driving is still illegal the entire time, whether anybody is drunk driving or not. The rule is there all the time; it is just free of consequence until you actually start.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 10:38 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
JJackson wrote:
Right. That is the first point there is actually an infraction happening. Drunk driving is still illegal the entire time, whether anybody is drunk driving or not. The rule is there all the time; it is just free of consequence until you actually start.

In other words Specter, you're being very difficult about semantics and things that are technically true but not true in practice. Also, this claim;

specter404 wrote:
Deck construction rules are part of the MTR, not the comprehensive rules.


Ignores the fact that the EDH deck construction rules are in the comprehensive rules, covered by rule 903.5 and its subsections, and the color ID rule (903.4) is also. If I were to hand you a card outside of a game and say "What is this card's color identity?" would you really try to say "It doesn't have one, we're not playing a game right now"?

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 12:36 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
In other words Specter, you're being very difficult about semantics and things that are technically true but not true in practice.


Conversational summary:
Me: General statement about how rules dont apply outside of a game
Someone else: identifies exception where rules are used outside of game
Another person: yeah but they dont actually "do anything" outside a game
A person: here is a very specific rule to talk about
Me: More specific statements about how exactly rules apply, also notes the fact this argument is becoming more about technicalities than practicalities (academic)
Conversation continues to become more technical and less practical using analogies unrelated to magic.

I started general, people attacked my comments with more technical and specific cases. Why is it my fault that this has become about semantics and technicalities and not practical application?

You cant quote rules at me, talk about how the wording proves your point and then complain that Im being overly technical and arguing semantics. (and by you, I mean people in the discussion, not you Sid specifically)

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-03 2:58 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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Location: New Hampshire
Looking back, some of those comments were from Spectrar Ghost, and not you Specter, so that's on me - you have similar names (referencing ghosts) and I didn't pay enough attention. That said, you started here;

Quote:
In addition to that, "out of the game" is not covered by the rules. The rules for MTG only take effect once the game/tournament have started.

No part of the Comprehensive rules apply at all before the game starts. out of the game, every card is just overpriced cardboard with no type, colour, mana cost or anything else.


And I assert that this statement is wrong. Aside from the EDH rules I referenced above, I think the last sentence from my previous post is the most relevant one, or rather what it implies is what is most important; that no sane person is going to act as though the rules don't exist until they are playing the game, because those rules absolutely inform your deckbuilding decisions, analysis of whether a card is good, and indeed anything related to the cards, not just the actual playing of games.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-04 7:34 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That's fair.

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