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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-23 10:53 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Hax_r_us wrote:
Yet that is exactly what i'm doing and is exactly what the rules allow for as they are written.

No, it is not. Devoid affects the card. Mana symbols on the card are not the card. Mana symbols can not have their color taken away any more than they can gain trample or protection from red. The card inherits its color from the symbols, not the other way around. You can change the colors of the card all day long, but its mana symbols remain exactly the same.
Hax_r_us wrote:
Is an object the color or colors of the mana symbols?
Or is an object the color of colors of the mana represented by the mana symbols?

Yes.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 12:29 am 
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Let's put it this way: if you play Sire of Stagnation and then play Master of Waves, do you get one elemental token or two?

You get two. Why? Because Devoid doesn't negate the existence of the mana symbols.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 1:22 am 
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Oh, for the record Hax, Devoid is not a new ability, just a new keyword. Ghostfire has been around for quite some time. Don't you think if this was a real thing, it would have been addressed already?

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 4:08 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Hax_r_us wrote:
So, lets look at Bearer of Silence:
* Colours of mana represented by mana symbols: Black.
* Colours of mana symbols: None.
* Colours defined in CDA: None.
End Colour Identity: <nothing> + <nothing> = Colorless.


You actually mean:

* Colours of mana represented by mana symbols: Black.
* Colours of mana symbols: None.
* Colours defined in CDA: None.
End Colour Identity: <black> + <nothing> + <nothing> = Black.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 4:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
He actually just means:

* Colours of mana symbols: Black.
* Colours defined in CDA: None.

End Colour Identity: Black + <nothing> = Black.


Trying some silly semantic trickery to say that colored mana symbols aren't a color is a big waste of everyone's time.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 5:03 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
crokaycete wrote:
Trying some silly semantic trickery to say that colored mana symbols aren't a color is a big waste of everyone's time.

Agreed.

Even if mana symbols aren't technically a color, the only reasonable interpretation of "color of the mana symbols on a card" is "color of the mana represented by the mana symbols on a card". Put simply, there is no way in hell this ridiculous idea is even close to correct based on the rules. Period. End of goddamn story, everyone dies, the end.

This thread might be even stupider than Uriel's "I can violate the 100 card limit with Relentless Rats" argument.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-24 5:28 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Just a reminder folks: color identity is not color (and I really wish we'd called it something without color in the name). It uses a bunch of similar markers for determination, but that's the extent of it.

Technically, I don't think the symbols have a color. They represent a color. That distinction is irrelevant, fortunately.

Making devoid work in color identity would involve adding a rule that says "Devoid cards have no color identity". I don't see a compelling reason to make this particular exception, though. It goes against the point of CI, which mostly cares about symbols.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-25 2:29 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
And lets you play Eldrazi Displacer in a UG deck if you have City of Brass effects.

Totally down to let anyone play a colorless legendary Eldrazi with 5c identity though. I mean otherwise it has to be Karona, which is okay but not a world of flavor.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-07 12:44 am 

Joined: 2016-Oct-06 11:14 pm
Age: Egg
I don't want to mess this up with even more discussion about rules and the numerous contradictions in this format, so I'm gonna leave rules out of my reasoning fot being pro-devoid;

Devoid is an ability specifically designed to be played with Eldrazi.
Devoid makes cards colourless specifically because the signature characteristic of Eldrazi is their colourless nature, and allows these cards to synergize and interact with effects that take advantage of this nature.
The fact that an Eldrazi tribal ability cannot be played in a deck with an Eldrazi legendary commander is a failure, for lack of a better word.

Speaking purely in terms of signature characteristics, each color also has its own;

-Blue centers around control and manipulation. Blue cards often manipulate players' libraries and spells in the caster's favor, in the form of card draw and detaining opponents' spells.
-Green centers around large creatures and mana bases. Green cards often allow land tutoring and ramp, and giving large buffs or creating large tokens.
-Red centers around speed, burn, and recklessness. Red cards often deal direct damage, and have low mana costs with extra costs for the caster. Often considered the opposite of blue, with Redirect and Reverberate being an example of this.
-White centers around life and light. White cards often gain life and protect other cards with few extra cost.
-Black is the opposite of white and centers around death and darkness. Black cards often use life as a resource for casting spells.

Cards with devoid came about to allow Eldrazi spells that still fit in with these key color characteristics.
If all the cards with devoid were colorless in cost, you could build a deck with 5 colors' worth of utility but without the complicated mana base you would normally need to make it work.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-08 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Image

Jed Rowahnn wrote:
Devoid is an ability specifically designed to be played with Eldrazi.
Devoid makes cards colourless specifically because the signature characteristic of Eldrazi is their colourless nature, and allows these cards to synergize and interact with effects that take advantage of this nature.
The fact that an Eldrazi tribal ability cannot be played in a deck with an Eldrazi legendary commander is a failure, for lack of a better word.


Too f#$%ing bad. The rules should not be expected to be re-done every time WotC prints something that doesn't work with them. We didn't re-configure the CI rules because of Extort, for example.

Jed Rowahnn wrote:
Cards with devoid came about to allow Eldrazi spells that still fit in with these key color characteristics.
If all the cards with devoid were colorless in cost, you could build a deck with 5 colors' worth of utility but without the complicated mana base you would normally need to make it work.


And? Would you also like to argue that Rapacious One should be legal in a Kozilek deck, because had it been printed in BfZ block it would almost certainly have had Devoid? There's plenty of eldrazi that cannot legally be used in an eldrazi titan deck and also don't have devoid.

Furthermore, changing devoid to allow them to be used as colorless has implications far beyond "I wanna build tribal eldrazi". Like letting Sire of Stagnation show up in any deck. I mention SoS because it's one of the most obnoxious cards I have ever freaking seen, but this point can be extended to any other even remotely playable devoid card - they could show up in any deck, and thanks to the removal of rule 4, even be castable. That's the opposite of everything the CI rules are meant to do.

TL;DR: Still no way.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-09 10:36 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
Jed, if you build a five-color Ulamog deck with nothing but colorless and/or devoid cards and ask politely before the game, explaining the flavor and atmosphere of it, I'll let you play it as a house-rule. How about that? The existence and endorsement of house rules is admission that some things that make sense flavor-wise just can't be done within the rules of Magic. Deal with it. I run a deck with a nonlegendary commander: Evershrike. The creature is unique and flavorful, but it's not a legend. Screw that, I made the deck anyway and am happily having fun. You can do the same, you know.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-09 11:40 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I use Kozilek, the Great Distortion of the Format Construction Rules to do exactly this.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 10:22 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
In my opinion, changing rules to suit one keyword or card is not all that great of an idea. I'm pretty sure they knew about color identity when they thought up Devoid and when they actually printed cards with it. The way I see it, they had their chance to bypass the color identity rule, and decided not to.

Part of the benefit of running cards with no color identity is that they already have no color, and are 100% unrestricted by things like Dromar, the Banisher and Iona, Sheild of Emeria. I see Devoid as their way to let cards with a color identity bypass such effects for flavor reasons (Eldrazi being colorless).

The only thing I noticed that was odd is there's nothing addressing the new colorless mana icons for cards like Kozilek's Pathfinder and Magnifying Glass. I'm not sure if there's a difference between a colorless color identity and no color identity, and I couldn't find anything specifically about it, but I do think discussing the difference between the two might be interesting (Though it seems irrelevant to me regarding deck building, considering how they're moving forward with artifacts that generate colorless mana).

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 7:46 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
Drrakus wrote:
The only thing I noticed that was odd is there's nothing addressing the new colorless mana icons for cards like Kozilek's Pathfinder and Magnifying Glass. I'm not sure if there's a difference between a colorless color identity and no color identity, and I couldn't find anything specifically about it, but I do think discussing the difference between the two might be interesting (Though it seems irrelevant to me regarding deck building, considering how they're moving forward with artifacts that generate colorless mana).

Colourless mana has always existed. The cards you mention are the same as Sol Ring, they have no colour identity and can be included in any deck.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-10 9:11 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CI only cares about the *colors* of mana symbols in the casting cost and rules text. Colorless not being a color, CI doesn't even look for it.

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