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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 12:08 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Drrakus wrote:
Part of the benefit of running cards with no color identity is that they already have no color, and are 100% unrestricted by things like Dromar, the Banisher and Iona, Sheild of Emeria. I see Devoid as their way to let cards with a color identity bypass such effects for flavor reasons (Eldrazi being colorless).

I think more importantly it let them have cards that care about colorless without completely wrecking the color pie. Barrage Tyrant and Eldrazi Aggressor, for example, are very much a red cards in terms of what they are doing. There are a decent number of these types of things in BFZ block, and it would be too much color bleed to just make them traditional colorless.

If they want eldrazi to care about other eldrazi, there are only a few options:
  • Traditional tribal - This is bad for cross-block synergies and means they have to use the Tribal type if they want it to work on spells (which probably makes balancing Delerium in SoI block problematic)
  • Traditional colorless - For the amount they're doing this, you end up with awful amounts of color bleed
  • Devoid - Its only quirk is the color identity issue, which is a relatively small problem compared to making draft and standard functional


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 2:04 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Also they learned from the original Mirrodin block that having a mass of colourless cards ends up ruining the draft format.

They found that people would just draft the best cards in the pack, which throws off looking for signals, etc. So, that's another reason not to just use the traditional colourless route.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 10:08 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
CI only cares about the *colors* of mana symbols in the casting cost and rules text. Colorless not being a color, CI doesn't even look for it.


I probably have too much time to think about this sort of stuff, despite having a hobby.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-25 2:36 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
I've no real stake in this argument, and wasn't going to even reply until someone brought up Transguild Courier. My question is how the rules differentiate Transguild's being ostensibly a colorless card in all aspects, but with rules text saying it's a five color card, vs any Devoid card, where conversely, a card should have certain color, but the rules text says it has none. I was reading that Transguild is treated as five color in Commander. If I'm wrong, then you can ignore my whole post, but if so, I don't understand the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-25 3:20 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
The colour identity is "Colour + Mana Symbols".

Deck Construction Rules wrote:
3. A card's colour identity is its colour plus the colour of any mana symbols in the card's rules text. A card's colour identity is established before the game begins, and cannot be changed by game effects.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-25 5:43 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
I've no real stake in this argument, and wasn't going to even reply until someone brought up Transguild Courier. My question is how the rules differentiate Transguild's being ostensibly a colorless card in all aspects, but with rules text saying it's a five color card, vs any Devoid card, where conversely, a card should have certain color, but the rules text says it has none. I was reading that Transguild is treated as five color in Commander. If I'm wrong, then you can ignore my whole post, but if so, I don't understand the difference.

Transguild Courier is not a colourless card in any aspect, and never has been. Current Oracle wording on it has it with no rules text at all, and it has all five colours under its Colour Indicator. Some relevant CR text:

Quote:
204. Color Indicator
204.1. The color indicator is printed to the left of the type line directly below the illustration. It consists of a circular symbol filled in with one or more colors. A color indicator is usually found on nonland cards without a mana cost.
204.2. An object with a color indicator is each color denoted by that color indicator.

Now, this isn't really the "aha" that makes Transguild Courier one thing while Devoid is something different. Devoid is legitimately colourless in all zones, that's what the CR says:

Quote:
702.113. Devoid
702.113a. Devoid is a characteristic-defining ability. "Devoid" means "This object is colorless." This ability functions everywhere, even outside the game. See rule 604.3.

But colour and colour identity aren't the same, as lumination points out. Relevant CR text:

Quote:
903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card's mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).

Putting it all together:

Transguild Courier was all five colours under its old wording (when it was a characteristic-defining ability) and now it is still all five colours (using the Color Indicator attribute of the card).

Devoid cards are still colourless in all zones, but Colour Identity looks at Colour Indicators, characteristic defining abilities, and - most importantly - all mana symbols.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-25 5:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
I've no real stake in this argument, and wasn't going to even reply until someone brought up Transguild Courier. My question is how the rules differentiate Transguild's being ostensibly a colorless card in all aspects, but with rules text saying it's a five color card, vs any Devoid card, where conversely, a card should have certain color, but the rules text says it has none. I was reading that Transguild is treated as five color in Commander. If I'm wrong, then you can ignore my whole post, but if so, I don't understand the difference.

To expand on what lumination said: Colour Identity is the culmination of colours + colours of mana symbols on the card. It's a purely additive situation, you can't "lose" or "undo" adding a colour to a card's colour identity.

Devoid says that a card is colourless. It it's a characteristic defining ability that sets a colour (colourless is not a colour); it's not any of the mana symbols that define a colour; it's not a colour indicator on the card; Therefore, it doesn't have any impact on the colour identity of the card.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-26 12:40 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
The additive rule makes sense. Before I posted here, I looked up Transguild Courier on Gatherer and TCG Player, and only saw one printing -- Dissension -- where the only thing making it five colors was the hand of god in the rules text, letting you know that despite appearances, this card is in fact five colors. Further rulings say that the means of denoting that Courier is five colors has been changed from a characteristic defining ability - presumably what I've been reading - to a color indicator, which, for the life of me, I can't find on the card. I know what a color indicator is, from flip cards mostly - a little orb of color. The additive rule makes sense, because the only reason devoid cards are colorless is because of seemingly the exact same hand of god wording in the rules text - only this time, in the form of a keyword. "This card is all colors"... "This card has no color".


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-26 3:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
Further rulings say that the means of denoting that Courier is five colors has been changed from a characteristic defining ability - presumably what I've been reading - to a color indicator, which, for the life of me, I can't find on the card. I know what a color indicator is, from flip cards mostly - a little orb of color.

Transguild Courier has never been printed with the colour indicator -- which is why you can't see it.

I might have been updated to have one in MTGO (I don't play there, but that's the place they can go back and retroactively do those kinds of changes.)

If they ever reprint it - then it will have the colour indicator on it.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-26 8:02 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
Before I posted here, I looked up Transguild Courier on Gatherer and TCG Player, and only saw one printing -- Dissension -- where the only thing making it five colors was the hand of god in the rules text, letting you know that despite appearances, this card is in fact five colors

Gatherer is a little confusing this way. TCGPlayer is straight wrong from the rules perspective.

Gatherer, when you search for it, still makes mention of the rules text in the drop down/preview text - so as you type "Transguild co..." it makes suggestions. The suggestion for Transguild Courier itself still shows the "hand of god rules text" you mention.

But when you actually click it then you get the real Oracle text. Which has no rules text, and all five colours printed with the "Colour Indicator" field.

You can also click over to "Printed" text and see the old rules text.

You are correct that there are no printings with the rules text stripped out and the Colour Indicator printed on the card. In this case, the Oracle text was changed without a new printing. Intervention Pact is the same way. Contrast with Pact of Negation which got a new printing with the updated rules text.

In all cases, TCGPlayer doesn't show Oracle text, it shows Printed text. Pact of Negation has both wordings, one under each different printing (Future Sight, Modern Masters). That's fine from a sales perspective (you're buying a card with that text on it) but it's not correct from a rules perspective.

Gatherer, even with its faults, is the place to go for proper rules text.

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"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-29 5:19 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Devoid only counts as colour identity in game and not when deck building.
Sire of Stagnation is a black and blue card as indicated by the mana symbols on the card itself. When the game starts that's when the devoid takes effect and works. Hence why you can use Eye of Uginto grab it. You can blame WOTC for giving colourless commander players the metaphorical middle finger with the new eldrazi.

In the case of cards like pact of negation and flip side of archangel avacyn since the cards don't have mana symbols in the cost because there is no cost, the colour indicator tells you what the colour is.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-30 1:42 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
Devoid only counts as colour identity in game and not when deck building.

I'm sorry, that's wrong.

The colour identity of a card never changes. In game, or out of a game, it's always the same.

Which means, as stated before, Devoid never affects colour identity.


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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-01 11:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
In addition to that, "out of the game" is not covered by the rules. The rules for MTG only take effect once the game/tournament have started.

No part of the Comprehensive rules apply at all before the game starts. out of the game, every card is just overpriced cardboard with no type, colour, mana cost or anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-01 8:50 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'll just reiterate that CI is not color. They're often conflated, but (almost) entirely seperate concepts.
CI mostly cares about mana symbols - it only overlaps with color by taking CDAs (characteristic defining abilities) and color indicators into account. Sire is always colorless (Devoid is a CDA). Sire has B and U in its casting cost and rules text, So it has UB as a CI.

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 Post subject: Re: In Defense of Devoid
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-02 2:18 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
specter404 wrote:
No part of the Comprehensive rules apply at all before the game starts. out of the game, every card is just overpriced cardboard with no type, colour, mana cost or anything else.

The deck construction rules do :P


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