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 Post subject: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 6:54 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
Hello

With the nature of how edh works certain cards become banned due to balance issues or feel-bad issues. i.e emrakul(in his time) and Tolarian academy(unfair blue shenanigans i suppose) however with the time that commander has been around new decks and strategies have been formulated rendering others derelict. This i believe to be the case with Braids. When she was printed edh had a small card base limited strategies and even more limited answers it has been 15 years since that time and i feel that braids has been outclassed by other more potent strategies and by the ammount of removal available in the game.

Case in point. Derevi, pre mull she was a power house stax deck crushing the dreams of commander players sense her inception. now post mull is a lack luster deck that really cant do many broken things. Deretti still a potent stax deck however one using a planeswalker as a general insures the deck will never win by general damage and limiting the deck to only red removes the best tutors lands and utility cards in the game.

This is were braids comes into question. she may be a potent stax peice but when you look at the amount of cards that will render her useless it becomes clear she isent all that bad. Segarta for one will render her useless, be it a general or in the 99 the colors lend to landing her early and putting a stop to braids stax abilities. Of course the kill spell and counter argument will come up here as evidence so i wont type it all out however will note on the wide spread availability of it and now the massive scope of answers available.

Last point i want to make on banning her is in the vein of she is better off to be house ruled out than actually hard banned. As a general she is only going to be in a mono black deck keeping her from a wide use of other cards that would otherwise break her see paradox haze and any clone effect. as a deck she is missing alot of tools because of the mono nature.

sorry for grammatical errors and such typing this up on my phone while away on holiday.

tl:dr: Due to new deck strategies and cards developed over the years braids should be unbanned compleatly


Last edited by Yuribarber on 2016-May-31 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 7:14 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
None of the reasons Braids was banned have changed. It's still WAY too easy to cast a Dark Ritual or Sol Ring or Mana Crypt to play her on turn 2 and just end the game.

With that said, Braids seems like such a self-evident suck fest that I can't imagine a lot of people would play her more than once or twice without realizing how awful she makes games. It could be unbanned, if and only if the RC is comfortable with saying "This is legal, but you should know better unless your group has agreed to be super competitive."

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 7:43 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
It could be unbanned, if and only if the RC is comfortable with saying "This is legal, but you should know better unless your group has agreed to be super competitive."


This is exactly how it should be given how the RC pushes the house rule casual mentality.

i understand the reasons havent changed however the edh of then is much different the the edh of now, now braid's ability can be curtailed much easier than before.

As for the t2 argument, it is actually harder than one would thing sense you dont have access to a bunch of rocks, yes you need a sol ring or a mana vault/crypt or a dark rit. that 3 rocks and a instant. you have ~1/25 chance of doing it. that is perfectly fair when you think about it especially when you flip her over your going to be be beset on by 3 people


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 8:26 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yuribarber wrote:
now braid's ability can be curtailed much easier than before.

I'm not sure that's true.

And the "3 on 1" argument that you propose didn't save Braids then, why would it let her off the ban list now?


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 8:33 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
The difference is now we have more outs to her. The power of the 3 in this case have jumped comparative to back then


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 8:35 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think you are taking my example a bit too literally. Turn 2 is certainly a worst case scenario, but it's not the only problem with Braids. Even with a normal mana rock, playing her on turn 3 will often mean at least one opponent is stuck on 2 lands. Heck, even with no mana rock, being stuck on 3 lands will shut down a lot of casual EDH decks, whose sweepers may start at 4. The card just makes games that are not fun to be a part of (unless you are planning to do something just as broken as she is, which is admittedly possible.)

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 9:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yuribarber wrote:
The difference is now we have more outs to her. The power of the 3 in this case have jumped comparative to back then


How so? 3+ cost removal has existed en masse forever and no new removal is being printed that is cheaper due to power levels. The "outs" are the same as before. 3+ cost removal is not strong enough to deal with her reliably when the deck will be designed to get her down by turn 3 reliably and there's not much new at a reasonable cost that has been printed in the last five years.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 10:20 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
There have always been ways to handle her. Nevermoor meddleing mage. Hell black cant interact with enchantments well at all. Path /swords oblation oring and ilk black has all the killspells and edicts which are costed mostly at 2 red has all the burn spells, chaos warp. Green cant so much until turn 3 but can play threw it. Blue has all the counter bounce and pong/rapid. I'm sure I'm missing some but they outs are their playable and relatively cheap. Plus laying a braids deck requires a specialty build. Its not unreasonable to have a deck that could handle her. But what it boils down to is in this case were the answers do exist this makes her fall into the realm of house banning not hard banning


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 10:34 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Listing the things that can answer her isn't really helping your cause. Also saying "green can play threw(sic) it" is just plain wrong if green never gets above 3 mana.

I would be interested in hearing the rationale for Braids being banned but Iona not being banworthy. Is it merely a case of the different CMC's?

Edited to add: they both result in players being unable to play the game, is where I'm seeing the similarity. And in a lot of cases, Iona is harder to answer than Braids is "you can't play your answer" versus "you can play your cheap answers")

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 10:41 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
I was just listing examples of how over the years we have gotten more answers to braids. That being said that's why I think the house rule argument should come in. The people that would play her would be able to handle her. Its on the idea of leave it open for them to decide but let them decide of they do t want it not let us decide for them


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 10:56 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yuribarber wrote:
Its on the idea of leave it open for them to decide but let them decide of they do t want it not let us decide for them

They still can decide to play her. They can house rule her legal. What's wrong with that?


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 11:56 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-09 4:18 am
Age: Wyvern
I'm of the thought that its better to allow stuff like that then let the groups self police. Its better to lets groups self restrict instead of self permit. It just makes it more coherent lgs to lgs


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 4:39 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
First off, just going off of my Daretti deck, whose ultimate goal is to cast an equal CMC gen on turn 1 or 2, here are all of the colorless cards in the deck that assist it in that measure:

Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mox Opal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Jeweled Amulet, Lotus Petal, Mishra's Workshop, Gemstone Caverns, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, Prismatic Lens, Thought Vessel, Mind Stone, Everflowing Chalice, Fellwar Stone, and Grim Monolith. Adding in the options that I choose not to include in that deck you get Coldsteel Heart, Implements of Sacrifice, Plague Myr, Lotus Blossom, Pentad Prism, Sphere of the Suns, Star Compass, Fractured Powerstone, Guardian Idol, Manakin, Millikin Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper.

That brings the number of cards up to 32, almost a third of the deck, giving an almost guaranteed T3 Braids. Add in black specific cards and you get Blood Pet, Bubbling Muck, Cabal Ritual, Basal Thrull, Dark Ritual, Priest of Yawgmoth[card], [card]Rain of Filth, Soldevi Adnate, Charcoal Diamond, Leaden Myr, Ebon Stronghold, and Peat Bog, bringing the total up to 44. Virtually half of the deck being devoted to getting your general out 1, 2, or 3 turns early. This is also discounting the number of black rituals and artifacts that necessitate creatures in play, as well as anything 3+ mana. Now, it could be argued that including all of them is ridiculous, but the fact that you can EASILY guarantee a turn 3 Braids and probably get her out earlier. A true competitive Braids deck would include nothing but ways to get her out, draw/tutor whatever combo/win condition you have, and disrupt the (few) cards/strategies that can stop or outrace her. You probably wouldn't need ALL of those cards listed, but choosing the best 33ish of them would be enough to guarantee 2 of them in your opening hand.


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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-May-31 11:38 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kong, I think you are focused on the wrong thing. "You can break it if you really try" isn't the bar for banning. It's more like "a normal deck built to support this card will cause problems too often."

I don't think you could consider 30 mana accelerants normal. You could easily call 10-15 normal though. And even 10-15 will turn into a turn 2-3 Braids too often.

Viperion wrote:
I would be interested in hearing the rationale for Braids being banned but Iona not being banworthy. Is it merely a case of the different CMC's?
That's a lot of it. Also, when Iona dies the game goes back to normal. Let's do the simple comparison:

Turn 3 Braids lives for 2 turn cycles then dies: Each opponent has (probably) been double stone-rained. At ~40% mana sources, a deck takes an average of 5 draws (3-5 additional turns) to "recover" to a normal turn 5 state following double stone-rain.
Turn 7 Iona lives for 2 turn cycles then dies: Each opponent can still play lands normally. All opponents can still play some subset of the spells in their decks (although the contents of one of their hands may not be part of this subset.) When Iona dies, those opponents that didn't play specific spells when she was alive get to cast them pretty much immediately because they still have all the mana and other resources they built up during and prior to Iona.

It's very obvious why Braids is so much more problematic than Iona.

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 Post subject: Re: My Case for a Braids Cabal Minion unbanning
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-01 1:48 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yuribarber wrote:
There have always been ways to handle her. Nevermoor meddleing mage. Hell black cant interact with enchantments well at all. Path /swords oblation oring and ilk black has all the killspells and edicts which are costed mostly at 2 red has all the burn spells, chaos warp. Green cant so much until turn 3 but can play threw it. Blue has all the counter bounce and pong/rapid. I'm sure I'm missing some but they outs are their playable and relatively cheap. Plus laying a braids deck requires a specialty build. Its not unreasonable to have a deck that could handle her. But what it boils down to is in this case were the answers do exist this makes her fall into the realm of house banning not hard banning


Ok... so you listed one card that has come out in the last five years that was less than three CMC. That one card, (Rapid Hybridization) is a functional reprint of another card and is questionably playable.

The existing answers to her were deemed insufficient so naming a bunch of cards we all know about isn't helping your case. You were specifically asked what NEW answers came out with less than 3 CMC since your entire argument for unbanning is based on "tons of new answers have come out". Sigarda really doesn't help since she costs 7 which you won't be anywhere near by turn 3.

There aren't new ways of dealing with her. There are more 3+ cost answers and a very select group of cheaper options but decks are still running the same removal suite as before or have swapped out a few 3+ cost options. Counterspells are not getting cheaper and cancel is the new normal. Unrestricted removal is three as a baseline. Burn is increasingly inefficient. She is not any easier to answer now than she was five years ago and she never will be because they've moved away from hyper efficient answers.

A Braids deck will have her out on turn 3 guaranteed if not on turn 2. If she's out on turn 3, you have two lands in play possibly three if you went before the Braids player. What good does a Chaos Warp or Sigarda do when you only have two lands out? What kind of metagame are you suggesting that decks are required to have two or less mana answers in hand every game so that she could be safely unbanned? The LGS crowd is exactly the crowd that would abuse her if unbanned. I'd much rather have to say, sure go ahead and play her over having to refuse to play against her every week.


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