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AgePosted: 2016-Jun-27 11:53 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-26 12:12 am
Age: Wyvern
Well, if this ruling about the non-commander half of Brisela going to exile instead of the intended zone when trying to return the commander half to the command zone holds, which I think it should not, then the solution seems to be that Brisela decks are probably going to need to pack Pull from Eternity, Relic of Progenitus and Scrabbling Claws so that we can send both halves to the grave and then exile the commander half back to the command zone, and play a lot more recursion so that we just send both halves to the intended zone instead of back to the command zone.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 12:54 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
Emerge looks like a shit mechanic so far, unless you care about killing your own creatures.
I think that rider is way more generally applicable than you seem to think. Sacrifice outlets that provide value are not bad.

I also think RaiRai is actually correct that you could very happily slot Emerge creatures into a Rubinia deck. I think he's not correct, however, in thinking that this is any type of problem.

Emerge is mostly a mechanic for limited, I would think. Ugrade your now-useless bear into some efficiently costed fatty or evasion creature.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 1:44 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Killing your own creatures for fun and profit has always been an EDH archetype. I think the mechanic itself has plenty of application, it's just going to be a matter of whether Wizards prints anything decent in this set outside of Limited/Standard fodder.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 2:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If you can't protect your cards, you shouldn't be talking about competitive play. EVERY commander risks being invalidated by something. Your token deck is obliterated by Elesh Norn or other shrinking effects. Your Artifact/Enchantment heavy deck is obliterated by Aura Shards + tokens. Zur is invalidated by "Players can't search libraries". This is a game of rock/paper/scissors. Part of building a good deck is preparing for what is going to wreck you. There are dozens of ways to get around this supposed weakness. Pull from Eternity even drops it in your graveyard to immediately be reanimated by Bruna again.

These are also NOT balanced around their back sides. A 4/3 first strike, flying, lifelink for 4 mana is INSANELY undercosted. A 5/7 Flying Vigilance Reanimator for 7 is honestly really well costed when you consider the value of most angels you'll get to reanimate with it. A 2/3 for 3 that drops in TWO attacking creatures every swing is INSANELY efficient. The back sides of these melds are entirely a BONUS. Losing access to a BONUS is not game breaking and will only happen when you are caught with your pants down.

Don't pull the trigger before you're ready unless you're willing to accept the risk of getting blown out. There are TONS of sacrifice outlets in colorless and artifact form. There are even several in white. There are several counters in white that care about things targeting your creatures. "They can just exile the sac outlets too" Between lands, instants, artifacts, enchantments that is extremely unreasonable to expect that to happen. That still requires at least two vastly different responses to your preparations which is very unlikely to happen even in competitive games.


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 Post subject: Re: ~
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 4:33 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Mockingbird wrote:
Well, if this ruling about the non-commander half of Brisela going to exile instead of the intended zone when trying to return the commander half to the command zone holds, which I think it should not

That is only the case if the effect is sending it to exile in the first place. If Brisela is headed to the gy, you send the commander to the CZ and the other angel to the bin.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 5:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Pull from Eternity is probably a must-play in Brisela... but I don't expect that a strategy focused on getting the meld to go off is going to be the most successful. As one of many routes to victory I think its worth trying, so long as the deck is viable on its own.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 6:07 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I mean, being "forced" to run a 4/3 first strike, flying, lifelink for 2WW in your Humans and Angels mono-white deck isn't exactly the worst. That it sometimes upgrades your commander is just a bonus. Pull from Eternity is such garbage I would rather just pick a legitimately good card to play for all those times when trying to re-flip my commander isn't the most interesting thing to be doing.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 9:03 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Why not just allow them to be a double commander to form Brisela because they can't meld that quickly and mana ramping in white is tricky alone.
Sure. Just write up some CR viable rules that allow that. And then explain why it does not apply to Brothers Yamazaki

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 1:22 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
crokaycete wrote:
I mean, being "forced" to run a 4/3 first strike, flying, lifelink for 2WW in your Humans and Angels mono-white deck isn't exactly the worst. That it sometimes upgrades your commander is just a bonus. Pull from Eternity is such garbage I would rather just pick a legitimately good card to play for all those times when trying to re-flip my commander isn't the most interesting thing to be doing.

in a deck where the commander reanimates, pull from eternity could perform really well. Exile has to be prevalent though.

karador finds it very useful sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 6:05 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
niheloim wrote:
Pull from Eternity is probably a must-play in Brisela... but I don't expect that a strategy focused on getting the meld to go off is going to be the most successful. As one of many routes to victory I think its worth trying, so long as the deck is viable on its own.


My thoughts exactly. If I build this, and I probably will, the other angel will be in the 99, I'll play the new Lancers to fetch it, but meld won't be the ultimate goal, just a nice extra. I kinda like the randomness in it, "Oh no, there was a Gisela in my transporter pod, I'm turning into Brundlefly Brisela!".

I wonder what happens if none of them are your commander (when you play them both in a Captain Sisay deck or something), and Brisela gets Oblivion Ring'ed.

Do both Angels go into exile? Or is one exiled, and the other put into the graveyard since a half Brisela can't be there? In that case, when Gisela gets exiled and Bruna goes in the bin, destroying the Ring gets you Gisela back, which reanimates Bruna, which lets them meld again. So it would be important that you can choose yourself which one goes where.

And if they're both exiled by the Ring, can they both get back into play?


Last edited by Nigerian Prince on 2016-Jun-28 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 7:36 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
Nigerian Prince wrote:
I wonder what happens if none of them are your commander (when you play them both in a Captain Sisay deck or something), and Brisela gets Oblivion Ring'ed. Do both Angels go into exile? Or is one exiled, and the other put into the graveyard since a half Brisela can't be there? And if they're both exiled, can they both get back into play?

They explained it in the "Eldritch Moon Mechanics" article:

Quote:
Wherever that (meld) permanent goes, both cards go, and they each turn front face up again. So if it's bounced to your hand, you get Hanweir Battlements and Hanweir Garrison back in your hand. If Hanweir, the Writhing Township is put on top, on the bottom, or in a specific place in a library, the cards' owner chooses their relative order. Anything that performs actions on the cards after they leave the battlefield does so on both cards. In fact, the first thing I thought of when working on meld cards was Journey to Nowhere. How would that work? (...)

In this case, Hanweir, the Writhing Township is exiled, becoming Hanweir Battlements and Hanweir Garrison face up in exile. Later, both cards are returned to the battlefield, each with a +1/+1 counter. Of course, they'll probably meld again pretty soon, and those counters will disappear.

source


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 7:50 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
lumination wrote:
They explained it in the "Eldritch Moon Mechanics" article:

Quote:
Wherever that (meld) permanent goes, both cards go, and they each turn front face up again. So if it's bounced to your hand, you get Hanweir Battlements and Hanweir Garrison back in your hand. If Hanweir, the Writhing Township is put on top, on the bottom, or in a specific place in a library, the cards' owner chooses their relative order. Anything that performs actions on the cards after they leave the battlefield does so on both cards. In fact, the first thing I thought of when working on meld cards was Journey to Nowhere. How would that work? (...)

In this case, Hanweir, the Writhing Township is exiled, becoming Hanweir Battlements and Hanweir Garrison face up in exile. Later, both cards are returned to the battlefield, each with a +1/+1 counter. Of course, they'll probably meld again pretty soon, and those counters will disappear.

source


Yeah, I read that, but somehow didn't compute the last part there while reading, I guess.

So cards like Oblivion Ring that state "the card" should be read as "the cards" when a melded form is targeted?

And if I Pull from eternity whatever is exiled by Oblivion Ring, do I get both cards? It feels a little awkward with Hanweir, the Writhing Township, those cards aren't even both creatures.

To sum it up:

1. On the field: Brisela-meld is considered as 1 creature
2. In exile: Two seperate creatures, but somehow both linked to the source that exiled them in case of Oblivion Ring, Journey to nowhere, Grasp of Fate, etc.
3. Returning to the field: two seperate creatures, that will meld as soon as ETB resolved

I foresee lengthy discussions at our kitchen table :)


Last edited by Nigerian Prince on 2016-Jun-28 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 8:12 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
Nigerian Prince wrote:
So cards like Oblivion Ring that state "the card" should be read as "the cards" when a melded form is targeted?

And if I Pull from eternity whatever is exiled by Oblivion Ring, do I put both cards in my hand?

I foresee lengthy discussions at our kitchen table :)


Pull from Eternity would probably affect only one card.

I think the difference is that cards such as Oblivion Ring have the return clause reference the card they exiled, which in the case of a melded card equals the combination of its two component cards.
For other effects, the two exiled cards are not related in any way.

Can anyone confirm this?


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 9:22 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hang on, would O-Ring's return clause even resolve? If you exile Brisela, Gisela and Bruna unmeld, turning face up. When the return clause triggers, it will look for Brisela, and see only Bruna and Gisela, thus fizzling, right?

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jun-28 10:25 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Hang on, would O-Ring's return clause even resolve? If you exile Brisela, Gisela and Bruna unmeld, turning face up. When the return clause triggers, it will look for Brisela, and see only Bruna and Gisela, thus fizzling, right?

It isn't looking by name. It is looking for "the exiled card." The situation is analogous to exiling Liliana, Defiant Necromancer. You get back Liliana, Heretical Healer, if somebody pops the O-Ring.

As for returning 2 things with the same trigger; this isn't new territory. Strionic Resonator has been making that happen for years.


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