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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 1:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Mockingbird wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Brisela is only an object on the battlefield. Being part commander makes her deal commander damage. In another zone, say she gets wrecking balled and goes to the graveyard, the once melded cards are separate objects.

It is very apparent that some are very confused... this is why relic of progenitus was mentioned, and why some were not understanding the relevance of Pull from Eternity. That anyone thought both cards could be affected by the replacement to the command zone is just silly.

Unless of course, the rules committee rules it that way.

The replacement decision is made while the commander card(s) is on the field, before they split *unless the rules committee rules otherwise*. There is no limbo zone between the battlefield and the graveyard (or other intended zones) for those decisions to be made unless I'm missing something. If the decision was made in the graveyard, then Child of Alara would work *a lot* better than people want it to with it's death trigger. The same could be argued for Brisela because both cards carry the same attributes when the decision is made *allegedly* if they are being treated as one card at the time, which is why you should not write this off as silly. Brisela could set precedent to change how the command zone replacement rule works if their ruling on melded cards is not worded carefully enough.

You're conflating the decision with the action. Yes, you must decide what whether to apply the replacement effect prior to placing the commander into a zone (unless your group allows tack-backsides), thats just the logistics of playing. But that doesn't mean that the replacement effect will apply to the non-commander creature of the Brisela meld.

Replacement effects look at what would happen and change that event. In the case of Brisela what would happen if someone wrathed the board? You would end up with a Bruna and a Gisela in the graveyard. The replacement effect can then only apply to one of them as only one of them is a commander. The same is true for an exile effect.

There is no danger here of the rules committee rewriting the fundamentals of Magic or setting bizarre precedents. The only real question we had was how commander damage would be handled, and that wasn't a difficult solution to correctly speculate.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 1:44 am 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
As far as the original article reads:

Quote:
The differences kick in if it leaves the battlefield. Wherever that permanent goes, both cards go, and they each turn front face up again.


So both halves go wherever the spell puts them, face up. Then you get to use your commander replacement effect on your commander. The commander replacement effect needs them to be changing zones, so by the time it applies the cards have unmelded already.


To reiterate, in order for that to work, there would need to be a "limbo zone" between the battlefield and the graveyard for this to work. As far as I know, there isn't.

Let me expand on my other example of why this won't work as is: Child of Alara. Right now as the commander replacement effect works, Child of Alara cannot have both the death trigger and return to the command zone. This is because commanders are not redirected from the graveyard to the command zone. Child of Alara goes *straight* to the command zone from the battlefield if that option is chosen. And that decision has to be applied before Child of Alara leaves the battlefield because there is no other place (unless the "limbo zone" as I call it does exist).

To bring this back around to Brisela, Voice of Nightmares are her component angels: Brisela is considered one card that carries all the attributes of a commander while face-up on the field. Brisela deals commander damage and that commander damage counts towards Bruna, the Fading Light's commander damage (as far as I know it doesn't start a new tally, but that's something else). So when another player drops Supreme Verdict, right now, the decision to return Bruna, the Fading Light (or Gisela if it's her but see disclaimer above) to the command zone is applied before she leaves the battlefield. What your link about Tabak's says means that if Brisela is melded, then Gisela, the Broken Blade will *have* to try to follow Bruna to the Command Zone. But she can't. So where does she go?

Is Gisela redirected to exile because that's as close as she can get? This is the answer that seemed settled by the users (and not the Rules Committee) a week ago. That is no longer the case

Does Gisela go to the graveyard? That seems to be the answer, and despite the fact I'm arguing against it now, it would be the one I prefer. The issue is the rules as written don't support this and *must* be amended to make this work. And it needs to be done carefully because this could open up a different can of worms.

Is there some other strange scenario that results from this? We're actually not limited to just the two options we're debating. Things could get much worse for Gisela if the rules committee deems it necessary to not create other nightmare scenarios for other commanders.

My point is the Rules Committee *HAS* to step and set the precedent for Brisela because if she goes over well, which she likely will, she won't be the last melding commander we see.

niheloim wrote:
You're conflating the decision with the action. Yes, you must decide what whether to apply the replacement effect prior to placing the commander into a zone (unless your group allows tack-backsides), thats just the logistics of playing. But that doesn't mean that the replacement effect will apply to the non-commander creature of the Brisela meld.

Replacement effects look at what would happen and change that event. In the case of Brisela what would happen if someone wrathed the board? You would end up with a Bruna and a Gisela in the graveyard. The replacement effect can then only apply to one of them as only one of them is a commander. The same is true for an exile effect.

There is no danger here of the rules committee rewriting the fundamentals of Magic or setting bizarre precedents. The only real question we had was how commander damage would be handled, and that wasn't a difficult solution to correctly speculate.


With melded cards, what happens with one must happen with both, and it must happen at the same time. Your argument only stands if the limbo zone exists because there's no space between the decision and the destination for the split cards to go their separate ways.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 1:56 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Commanderness is an aspect of the card. Brisela is two cards. The second card isn't going to magically gain commanderness so it can go somewhere else. That DOESN'T make commander damage a question and it certainly DOESN'T make what happens when the object dies confusing.

You are trying too hard to find confusion when there is none.

If an actual issue existed here, there would be problems with EVERY DFC changing zones on the night side. They all die/exile face up. There doesn't have to be a "limbo" for them to flip as they die.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The rules are already clear, there doesn't need to be new rules from the RC.

You may not know that the RC and WOTC have some relations, they surely knew about these cards before we did and had input on the rules if needed (i'm presuming not, the rules are already intuitive and i don't understand the confusion).

Mockingbird wrote:
SpectrarGhost wrote:
So both halves go wherever the spell puts them, face up. Then you get to use your commander replacement effect on your commander. The commander replacement effect needs them to be changing zones, so by the time it applies the cards have unmelded already.


To reiterate, in order for that to work, there would need to be a "limbo zone" between the battlefield and the graveyard for this to work. As far as I know, there isn't.

No there doesn't. I'm not sure if Brisela being changed into 2 face up cards is a replacement effect but i think it functions identically like this. You apply both of these effects. There really does not need to be a limbo. Brisela is going to die and you have consider "okay, Brisela will not be 2 face up entities, and i want the entity that's a commander to go here".

Let me expand on my other example [...] Child of Alara cannot have both the death trigger and return to the command zone.[...] that decision has to be applied before Child of Alara leaves the battlefield because there is no other place (unless the "limbo zone" as I call it does exist).[/quote]
You mean as.

Mockingbird wrote:
Bruna, the Fading Light's commander damage (as far as I know it doesn't start a new tally, but that's something else).

No new tally.

Mockingbird wrote:
So when another player drops Supreme Verdict, right now, the decision to return Bruna, the Fading Light (or Gisela if it's her but see disclaimer above) to the command zone is applied before she leaves the battlefield. What your link about Tabak's says means that if Brisela is melded, then Gisela, the Broken Blade will *have* to try to follow Bruna to the Command Zone. But she can't. So where does she go?

Supreme Verdict makes the creature die, and dying creatures go to the grave. I do not think Tabak is trying to imply to you that you try to put Gisela into the command zone with Bruna.

And again, *as* they move zones.

Mockingbird wrote:
Is Gisela redirected to exile because that's as close as she can get? This is the answer that seemed settled by the users (and not the Rules Committee) a week ago. That is no longer the case

Why on earth would you think that is the case? Brisela dies, the cards are gonna go to the graveyard. Bruna is your commander, she goes to the command zone, Gisela is not, stop trying to do stuff to her. What makes exile "closer" to the command zone than the graveyard? Your imagination about MTG's afterlife? Just put Gisela where Supreme Verdict tells her to go (which is dead)

Mockingbird wrote:
Does Gisela go to the graveyard? That seems to be the answer, and despite the fact I'm arguing against it now, it would be the one I prefer. The issue is the rules as written don't support this and *must* be amended to make this work. And it needs to be done carefully because this could open up a different can of worms.

I want to refer again to what i said about the RC and WOTC having relations, and that WOTC, as inept as they are sometimes, probably (absolutely?) knows that people are going to try to jam Brisela as a commander. If it needed to be written on the card, it would be, and if needs to be in the rules, those rules will come out when the set does, and not right now (besides what they want to share).

Yes Gisela goes to the graveyard. Just do what the rules already *do* tell you. There is no "must be" rewritten.

Mockingbird wrote:
Is there some other strange scenario that results from this? We're actually not limited to just the two options we're debating. Things could get much worse for Gisela if the rules committee deems it necessary to not create other nightmare scenarios for other commanders.

Nope. Don't panic.

Mockingbird wrote:
My point is the Rules Committee *HAS* to step and set the precedent for Brisela because if she goes over well, which she likely will, she won't be the last melding commander we see.

Well the rules will be the same for them either way so it's hardly worth being worried over future meld commanders. It's not like the difference between 1 and 2 meld commanders is going to be the difference in making new rules or not anyway.

Mockingbird wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Replacement effects look at what would happen and change that event. In the case of Brisela what would happen if someone wrathed the board? You would end up with a Bruna and a Gisela in the graveyard. The replacement effect can then only apply to one of them as only one of them is a commander. The same is true for an exile effect.


With melded cards, what happens with one must happen with both.

Well good thing the rules are already written to dictate that they are not melded anymore when put into the graveyard.

The only weirdness i really see is for effects that might say "whenever a creature you control dies, gain life equal to it's power". So if a non-commander 5/5 dies you gain 5... if your commander 5/5 will die and you replace the effect you don't gain 5, but if you let it die you do gain 5... If Brisela will die and Bruna is your commander and replace the effect, you can't gain any life, right? Not even the 4 from Gisela. Unless you let Brisela die and then both separate angels are there, and you gain 9 or 11 or whatever it is.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:19 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
And again, *as* they move zones.


I see. So the limbo zone does exist.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:20 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Mockingbird wrote:

niheloim wrote:
You're conflating the decision with the action. Yes, you must decide what whether to apply the replacement effect prior to placing the commander into a zone (unless your group allows tack-backsides), thats just the logistics of playing. But that doesn't mean that the replacement effect will apply to the non-commander creature of the Brisela meld.

Replacement effects look at what would happen and change that event. In the case of Brisela what would happen if someone wrathed the board? You would end up with a Bruna and a Gisela in the graveyard. The replacement effect can then only apply to one of them as only one of them is a commander. The same is true for an exile effect.

There is no danger here of the rules committee rewriting the fundamentals of Magic or setting bizarre precedents. The only real question we had was how commander damage would be handled, and that wasn't a difficult solution to correctly speculate.


With melded cards, what happens with one must happen with both, and it must happen at the same time. Your argument only stands if the limbo zone exists because there's no space between the decision and the destination for the split cards to go their separate ways.

The "argument" stands because that is how the rules work. You need to read up on replacement effects.
Sovarius wrote:

The only weirdness i really see is for effects that might say "whenever a creature you control dies, gain life equal to it's power". So if a non-commander 5/5 dies you gain 5... if your commander 5/5 will die and you replace the effect you don't gain 5, but if you let it die you do gain 5... If Brisela will die and Bruna is your commander and replace the effect, you can't gain any life, right? Not even the 4 from Gisela. Unless you let Brisela die and then both separate angels are there, and you gain 9 or 11 or whatever it is.
Oooohhhh... interesting. Dies means to go to the graveyard, but if part of the meld is a commander that part never goes to the yard if the replacement occurs.

I would expect that the effect would behave like commander damage- if part is true we count the whole it true. It simply asks if part of the meld went to the yard to work. But thats guess work. It could go the other way.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:34 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So it would be either 9 or nothing i guess. No way it counts just the pieces that actually landed and scores you 4 for Gisela.

Mockingbird wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
And again, *as* they move zones.


I see. So the limbo zone does exist.

Thanks.

It's not actual zone in the game, but you could call it that i suppose. It's still in just one zone or the other.


Last edited by Sovarius on 2016-Jul-05 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:34 am 
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Epsilon wrote:
Commanderness is an aspect of the card. Brisela is two cards. The second card isn't going to magically gain commanderness so it can go somewhere else. That DOESN'T make commander damage a question and it certainly DOESN'T make what happens when the object dies confusing.

You are trying too hard to find confusion when there is none.

If an actual issue existed here, there would be problems with EVERY DFC changing zones on the night side. They all die/exile face up. There doesn't have to be a "limbo" for them to flip as they die.


I just noticed this.

Brisela is not two cards on the battlefield. They did *magically become* (read as: meld) into one card. If Bruna is the commander, then as a melded card, Gisela does carry all the same attributes and that means decisions as well. This discussion does not apply to DFC's because DFC's are still one card where ever they go, and not two different cards I want to go two different places.

Edit:

niheloim wrote:
The "argument" stands because that is how the rules work. You need to read up on replacement effects.


You're going to have to link me to the comprehensive rules you want to convince me, because what I'm reading is convincing me that Brisela's as commander replacement effects will try to carry both angels back to the command zone because Brisela is one object while on the battlefield (616 is where I'm looking for the record).


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 2:57 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
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Mockingbird wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Commanderness is an aspect of the card. Brisela is two cards. The second card isn't going to magically gain commanderness so it can go somewhere else. That DOESN'T make commander damage a question and it certainly DOESN'T make what happens when the object dies confusing.

You are trying too hard to find confusion when there is none.

If an actual issue existed here, there would be problems with EVERY DFC changing zones on the night side. They all die/exile face up. There doesn't have to be a "limbo" for them to flip as they die.


I just noticed this.

Brisela is not two cards on the battlefield. They did *magically become* (read as: meld) into one card. If Bruna is the commander, then as a melded card, Gisela does carry all the same attributes and that means decisions as well. This discussion does not apply to DFC's because DFC's are still one card where ever they go, and not two different cards I want to go two different places.


Brisela is absolutely two cards on the battlefield. It's one OBJECT on the battle field but that doesn't make it one card.


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 3:09 am 

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Mockingbird wrote:

niheloim wrote:
The "argument" stands because that is how the rules work. You need to read up on replacement effects.


You're going to have to link me to the comprehensive rules you want to convince me, because what I'm reading is convincing me that Brisela's as commander replacement effects will try to carry both angels back to the command zone because Brisela is one object while on the battlefield (616 is where I'm looking for the record).

614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

bolding mine

The Commander replacement looks forward at what would happen- Bruna or Gisela (whichever is the commander) going to exile/graveyard and replaces that.

This replacement is not acting on Brisela. That object ceases to exist as soon as the cards leave the battlefield. Rather, the effect is only acting on the object that is the commander, which is only one of the cards in the meld.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 3:34 am 

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niheloim wrote:
]Oooohhhh... interesting. Dies means to go to the graveyard, but if part of the meld is a commander that part never goes to the yard if the replacement occurs.

I would expect that the effect would behave like commander damage- if part is true we count the whole it true. It simply asks if part of the meld went to the yard to work. But thats guess work. It could go the other way.

Dies triggers use LKI, so it will be 9. If there is a 0/1 tarmogoyf in play and you doomblade it, that would gain 0 life with this hypothetical trigger despite gooyf being a 2/3 in the yard,


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 3:42 am 
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Epsilon wrote:
Brisela is absolutely two cards on the battlefield. It's one OBJECT on the battle field but that doesn't make it one card.


Matt Tabak would disagree with you.

Emphasis is mine:

"Hanweir, the Writhing Township is one permanent represented by two cards. It behaves like any other creature does. It can attack and block. It has abilities that work. It can be enchanted or equipped. You can put counters on it. And so on. You can think of it as one big card while on the battlefield and you won't be wrong. It's one creature, so a single spell that says "Destroy target creature" takes out the whole permanent. If you're asked to sacrifice a permanent, you can sacrifice Hanweir, the Writhing Township."

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27

niheloim wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:

niheloim wrote:
The "argument" stands because that is how the rules work. You need to read up on replacement effects.


niheloim wrote:
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

bolding mine

The Commander replacement looks forward at what would happen- Bruna or Gisela (whichever is the commander) going to exile/graveyard and replaces that.

This replacement is not acting on Brisela. That object ceases to exist as soon as the cards leave the battlefield. Rather, the effect is only acting on the object that is the commander, which is only one of the cards in the meld.


I'm going to refer you to the quote I just bolded from Matt Tabak's mechanic's explanation. What I gather from that in combination with his tweet that Brisela deals commander damage is while Bruna is melded into Brisela, since commander damage spreads to cover both halves, so does the replacement effect. By the time they separate, the decision was already made because what would happen to *Bruna* has changed to what would happen to *Brisela, Voice of Nightmares* because there is no go between being on the battlefield and the intended zone (unless limbo zone actually exists). There is no *as they go to the graveyard* because they are either there or they are not there (again: sans limbo actually existing). And further down the list, there's a case to be made for it:

614.4 Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.

The event is Brisela leaves the battlefield. Since she's considered "one card" (Matt Tabak's words), the decision has to have been made for Brisela as one card, not two. There's no going back in time, and there's no in-between time between being one card on the battlefield and two cards in the zone that was designated (again, sans limbo zone).


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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 4:02 am 

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614.4 Just means you can't use a replacement effect after the effect has resolved.in this context, if you let Bruna and Gisela hit the yard, you can't decide later to move them.

Quote:
711.4a While a double-faced card is outside the game, in a zone other than the battlefield, or on the battlefield with its front face up, it has only the characteristics of its front face.

As Brisela is going to the graveyard, she is not on the battlefield, so replacement effects only see Bruna and Gisela, and the commander replacement effect may only affect the commander.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 4:06 am 

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Mockingbird wrote:

Matt Tabak would disagree with you.

Emphasis is mine:

"Hanweir, the Writhing Township is one permanent represented by two cards. It behaves like any other creature does. It can attack and block. It has abilities that work. It can be enchanted or equipped. You can put counters on it. And so on. You can think of it as one big card while on the battlefield and you won't be wrong. It's one creature, so a single spell that says "Destroy target creature" takes out the whole permanent. If you're asked to sacrifice a permanent, you can sacrifice Hanweir, the Writhing Township."

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27


niheloim wrote:
614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen—they aren’t locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like “shields” around whatever they’re affecting.

bolding mine

The Commander replacement looks forward at what would happen- Bruna or Gisela (whichever is the commander) going to exile/graveyard and replaces that.

This replacement is not acting on Brisela. That object ceases to exist as soon as the cards leave the battlefield. Rather, the effect is only acting on the object that is the commander, which is only one of the cards in the meld.


I'm going to refer you to the quote I just bolded from Matt Tabak's mechanic's explanation. What I gather from that in combination with his tweet that Brisela deals commander damage is while Bruna is melded into Brisela, since commander damage spreads to cover both halves, so does the replacement effect.
You've gathered wrong.

Quote:
By the time they separate, the decision was already made because what would happen to *Bruna* has changed to what would happen to *Brisela, Voice of Nightmares* because there is no go between being on the battlefield and the intended zone (unless limbo zone actually exists). There is no *as they go to the graveyard* because they are either there or they are not there (again: sans limbo actually existing). And further down the list, there's a case to be made for it:

614.4 Replacement effects must exist before the appropriate event occurs—they can’t “go back in time” and change something that’s already happened. Spells or abilities that generate these effects are often cast or activated in response to whatever would produce the event and thus resolve before that event would occur.
The replacement effect does exist. It is generated by the rules of Commander. And while there is not limbo in the rules, there is a functional limbo. You have the option to apply the commander replacement or not AS the card moves to the graveyard/exile.

Quote:
The event is Brisela leaves the battlefield. Since she's considered "one card" (Matt Tabak's words), the decision has to have been made for Brisela as one card, not two. There's no going back in time, and there's no in-between time between being one card on the battlefield and two cards in the zone that was designated (again, sans limbo zone).
She is not one card in the rules. Matt is saying you can think of them as one card, as that is much easier than explaining the rules regarding objects and parsing the difference between them and cards.

JJackson wrote:
niheloim wrote:
]Oooohhhh... interesting. Dies means to go to the graveyard, but if part of the meld is a commander that part never goes to the yard if the replacement occurs.

I would expect that the effect would behave like commander damage- if part is true we count the whole it true. It simply asks if part of the meld went to the yard to work. But thats guess work. It could go the other way.

Dies triggers use LKI, so it will be 9. If there is a 0/1 tarmogoyf in play and you doomblade it, that would gain 0 life with this hypothetical trigger despite gooyf being a 2/3 in the yard,

We're not talking about the size of the creature, but whether we consider it to have actually died. LKI doesn't apply.

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 Post subject: Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-05 4:19 am 

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Mockingbird wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Brisela is absolutely two cards on the battlefield. It's one OBJECT on the battle field but that doesn't make it one card.


Matt Tabak would disagree with you.

Emphasis is mine:

"Hanweir, the Writhing Township is one permanent represented by two cards. It behaves like any other creature does. It can attack and block. It has abilities that work. It can be enchanted or equipped. You can put counters on it. And so on. You can think of it as one big card while on the battlefield and you won't be wrong. It's one creature, so a single spell that says "Destroy target creature" takes out the whole permanent. If you're asked to sacrifice a permanent, you can sacrifice Hanweir, the Writhing Township."

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27


I can do that too... Emphasis mine. You can think of it as one card because it's easier for some people to imagine objects as a single card but it's still two cards.


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