MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander
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*EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18255
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Author:  JJackson [ 2016-Jul-05 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Mockingbird, you're forgetting that the current CR say absolutely nothing about Melds. Odds are good that they will clarify that when a melded creature would change zones, you move both cards to the destination zone. That is the action that will be replaced by a commander zone change (assuming the destination is gy, exile, library, or hand). The commander zone change replacement doesn't give a fig about whether Brisela is one card or two. It just sees the physical commander card moving and offers a choice to CZ it instead.

Quote:
903.3. Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones.


niheloim wrote:
We're not talking about the size of the creature, but whether we consider it to have actually died. LKI doesn't apply.

Sorry, I was feeding my baby as I was typing and must have quoted the wrong person. Somebody was wondering about the size. If a "dies" trigger happens, it is definitely going to return the value for the full Brisela if it returns anything. I don't see why it wouldn't trigger, but the rules can be arbitrary.

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-Jul-05 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Epsilon wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Brisela is absolutely two cards on the battlefield. It's one OBJECT on the battle field but that doesn't make it one card.


Matt Tabak would disagree with you.

Emphasis is mine:

"Hanweir, the Writhing Township is one permanent represented by two cards. It behaves like any other creature does. It can attack and block. It has abilities that work. It can be enchanted or equipped. You can put counters on it. And so on. You can think of it as one big card while on the battlefield and you won't be wrong. It's one creature, so a single spell that says "Destroy target creature" takes out the whole permanent. If you're asked to sacrifice a permanent, you can sacrifice Hanweir, the Writhing Township."

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27


I can do that too... Emphasis mine. You can think of it as one card because it's easier for some people to imagine objects as a single card but it's still two cards.

maybe "one big card" will get special support in the Comp Rules?

Author:  Mockingbird [ 2016-Jul-05 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Epsilon wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Brisela is absolutely two cards on the battlefield. It's one OBJECT on the battle field but that doesn't make it one card.


Matt Tabak would disagree with you.

Emphasis is mine:

"Hanweir, the Writhing Township is one permanent represented by two cards. It behaves like any other creature does. It can attack and block. It has abilities that work. It can be enchanted or equipped. You can put counters on it. And so on. You can think of it as one big card while on the battlefield and you won't be wrong. It's one creature, so a single spell that says "Destroy target creature" takes out the whole permanent. If you're asked to sacrifice a permanent, you can sacrifice Hanweir, the Writhing Township."

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-mechanics-2016-06-27


I can do that too... Emphasis mine. You can think of it as one card because it's easier for some people to imagine objects as a single card but it's still two cards.


And in order for that to function, that means that every instance of "Bruna, the Fading Light" as commander is replaced with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares" as commander. You can do it too, but it doesn't change the fact that in order for meld to work as Matt described is that meld is in of itself a replacement effect that replaces two permanent cards with one permanent card. While on the field, Brisela is one card. The point Tabak is making is to say Brisela has to be treated as one card, otherwise there's messes created far worse than what happens with the command zone, such as an effect that puts +1/+1 counters on each creature you control. Does Brisela get two because she's two creatures? No, Brisela gets one because she's one permanent card on the battlefield.

I am willing to accept that there's a "functional" limbo zone not listed in the rules, but it sounds like the easiest solution would be to just put it in the rules. As is, there is nothing official (that's been brought to my attention) to create a space between where two different cards should go to the same place, but one gets redirected before arriving.

And it's going to need to be spelled out more clearly than on the webpage:

Quote:
9. If a Commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead. Details

√łThis is a replacement effect. It applies last and may apply multiple times to an event.

√łThe creature never goes to the original destination zone and will not trigger abilities that trigger based on going there (e.g. "dies" triggers).


The word "Would" can be easily interpreted to mean that the decision is made before the commander leaves the battlefield. In Brisela's case, that would happen while meld has replaced all instances of "Bruna, the Fading Light" with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-Jul-05 5:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Mockingbird wrote:
And in order for that to function, that means that every instance of "Bruna, the Fading Light" as commander is replaced with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares" as commander. You can do it too, but it doesn't change the fact that in order for meld to work as Matt described is that meld is in of itself a replacement effect
hold up... Mayhaps this is the issue. You don't know what a replacement effect is. Meld is not a replacement effect. Its more like a fancy "creature equip" or modification of auras.
Quote:
The word "Would" can be easily interpreted to mean that the decision is made before the commander leaves the battlefield. In Brisela's case, that would happen while meld has replaced all instances of "Bruna, the Fading Light" with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.
This is true. You can make the decision before Brisela leaves the battlefield. Thats often how it plays out. Someone plays a wrath, and you agonize over where to put your commander.

But there is no replacing instances of names... You know that Bruna is you commander. When Brisela is destroyed the Bruna card is going to end up in the yard. So you decide to apply the replacement effect in place before Bruna goes to the yard. You can make the decision any time prior to Bruna actually being placed in the yard. The effect is applied as she goes, redirecting her to the command zone instead.

Author:  Mockingbird [ 2016-Jul-05 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

niheloim wrote:
hold up... Mayhaps this is the issue. You don't know what a replacement effect is. Meld is not a replacement effect. Its more like a fancy "creature equip" or modification of auras.


I wish that were the case, but that cannot be how it works. Here's why. Let's say I cast Clone choosing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. I cannot choose to copy either Bruna, the Fading Light or Gisela, the Broken Blade. I have to copy Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. And I bring cloning specifically because that's a Layer 1 distinction (wow, we've officially entered the Rulings' Abyss). If it were an Aura/equip situation, then Clone couldn't copy Brisela because that means the Brisela doesn't exist on layer 3 (text change abilities for others who don't want to look it up). After all, when a Clone copies a permanent with other auras or equipments, it doesn't get those abilities (even if the aura/equipment says it gives the creature to be cloned that card text).

What that means is Melded cards exists at least on Layer 3 (possibly lower; I'm not even close to all knowing on layers and Meld is like less than 2 weeks old as I type this) in order for cloning to work like that. As a fun aside, *as far as I know* Humility can't break up a melded card either, and Humility only effects Layer 6 and 7, meaning a Brisela under Humility would be a 1/1 *single* creature with the name, Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.

Feel free to correct me, but that sounds like that meld is at least a layer 3 ability and not a 6 or 7, which is where most modifications take place.


niheloim wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
The word "Would" can be easily interpreted to mean that the decision is made before the commander leaves the battlefield. In Brisela's case, that would happen while meld has replaced all instances of "Bruna, the Fading Light" with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.
This is true. You can make the decision before Brisela leaves the battlefield. Thats often how it plays out. Someone plays a wrath, and you agonize over where to put your commander.

But there is no replacing instances of names... You know that Bruna is you commander. When Brisela is destroyed the Bruna card is going to end up in the yard. So you decide to apply the replacement effect in place before Bruna goes to the yard. You can make the decision any time prior to Bruna actually being placed in the yard. The effect is applied as she goes, redirecting her to the command zone instead.


Whether or not there's an instance of changing names of the commander in the grand spirit of Commander is something I'll leave to the Rules Committee, but changing names does exist in the rules because that's Layer 1 (Clone is not named "Clone" on the battlefield as a copy of "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares") and Layer 3 (Oh gosh, I think Meld may be the first for exploring with the name of the card on this layer, but there's other cards out there effect card's identity regarding texts, type, color, and super-type i.e. Alter Reality, Amoeboid Changeling, and (for the last two together) Mycosynth Lattice respectively).

That being said, Bruna, the Fading Light can't exist while she's a part of Brisela, Voice of Nightmares in terms of game state. That would be a violation of Layer 3 because something cannot be both "Bruna, the Fading Light" and not "Bruna, the Fading Light" at the same time. Brisela exists, carrying *all* attributes of being a commander (again, only as far as I've been informed) and that would mean the replacement decision (as the rules are worded at this moment) would have to be made on the battlefield for Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, not Bruna, the Fading Light (again, setting aside the existence or lack there of this mystical "limbo zone" I may have just invented).

Author:  Carthain [ 2016-Jul-05 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Mockingbird.... My suggestion would be to wait until we have actual Comp Rules written text. Until then, you seem to be asking questions that nobody can point to definite answers because nobody in the general public has that information yet.

That said -- Meld is not a replacement effect. Just the same as a card being flipped, transformed, or tapped is not a replacement effect.

Mockingbird wrote:
and that would mean the replacement decision (as the rules are worded at this moment) would have to be made for Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, not Bruna, the Fading Light.
Wait until we have the full written rules -- and then we can discuss this (and likely you'll be shown where you are wrong.)

Pointing to what Matt Tabak says on the "Mechanics of Eldritch Moon" article isn't proof, as he's speaking in the casual tongue, and not in rules-legalese.

And you're pointing to the layers -- but we don't know if meld will be part of the layers, or if it will be a new status, or perhaps something new.

Author:  Epsilon [ 2016-Jul-05 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

The fact that you're trying to find out what layer Meld operates at is a pretty big giveaway that you don't understand the underlying mechanics of the game. Layers interact with continuous effects. There is no continuous effect with meld. Meld is a state changing effect that turns two objects into one transformed object. There is NOTHING holding a transformed card on the back side. Something has to trigger to make it flip. There is NOTHING on the front of the card that dictates anything about what can or can't be on the back side of the card. We have artifacts that turn into creatures. Sorceries that turn into creatures. Creatures that turn into artifacts. Layers are not involved in any way. You have an object on the front side and a different object on the back side. For ease of display and coolness factor, the melded object is split over two cards instead of just showing the same on both or consolidating it on one.

The exact mechanics of meld and any specific card interactions will be fully addressed when they put up the release notes and the official rules changes. Expect that to handle some corner cases and exactly how to handle the flip side casting cost. They may clarify the command zone replacement effect but that is a pretty obvious interaction.

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-Jul-05 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Mockingbird wrote:
niheloim wrote:
hold up... Mayhaps this is the issue. You don't know what a replacement effect is. Meld is not a replacement effect. Its more like a fancy "creature equip" or modification of auras.


I wish that were the case, but that cannot be how it works. Here's why. Let's say I cast Clone choosing Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. I cannot choose to copy either Bruna, the Fading Light or Gisela, the Broken Blade. I have to copy Brisela, Voice of Nightmares. And I bring cloning specifically because that's a Layer 1 distinction (wow, we've officially entered the Rulings' Abyss). If it were an Aura/equip situation, then Clone couldn't copy Brisela because that means the Brisela doesn't exist on layer 3 (text change abilities for others who don't want to look it up). After all, when a Clone copies a permanent with other auras or equipments, it doesn't get those abilities (even if the aura/equipment says it gives the creature to be cloned that card text).

What that means is Melded cards exists at least on Layer 3 (possibly lower; I'm not even close to all knowing on layers and Meld is like less than 2 weeks old as I type this) in order for cloning to work like that. As a fun aside, *as far as I know* Humility can't break up a melded card either, and Humility only effects Layer 6 and 7, meaning a Brisela under Humility would be a 1/1 *single* creature with the name, Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.

Feel free to correct me, but that sounds like that meld is at least a layer 3 ability and not a 6 or 7, which is where most modifications take place.
Holy crap... I suppose its my own fault. If you couldn't parse what Matt meant when he said "think of it like one big card" I shouldn't have expected you to understand what was meant by "fancy creature equip."

Quote:
niheloim wrote:
Mockingbird wrote:
The word "Would" can be easily interpreted to mean that the decision is made before the commander leaves the battlefield. In Brisela's case, that would happen while meld has replaced all instances of "Bruna, the Fading Light" with "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares.
This is true. You can make the decision before Brisela leaves the battlefield. Thats often how it plays out. Someone plays a wrath, and you agonize over where to put your commander.

But there is no replacing instances of names... You know that Bruna is you commander. When Brisela is destroyed the Bruna card is going to end up in the yard. So you decide to apply the replacement effect in place before Bruna goes to the yard. You can make the decision any time prior to Bruna actually being placed in the yard. The effect is applied as she goes, redirecting her to the command zone instead.


Whether or not there's an instance of changing names of the commander in the grand spirit of Commander is something I'll leave to the Rules Committee, but changing names does exist in the rules because that's Layer 1 (Clone is not named "Clone" on the battlefield as a copy of "Brisela, Voice of Nightmares") and Layer 3 (Oh gosh, I think Meld may be the first for exploring with the name of the card on this layer, but there's other cards out there effect card's identity regarding texts, type, color, and super-type i.e. Alter Reality, Amoeboid Changeling, and (for the last two together) Mycosynth Lattice respectively).

That being said, Bruna, the Fading Light can't exist while she's a part of Brisela, Voice of Nightmares in terms of game state. That would be a violation of Layer 3 because something cannot be both "Bruna, the Fading Light" and not "Bruna, the Fading Light" at the same time. Brisela exists, carrying *all* attributes of being a commander (again, only as far as I've been informed) and that would mean the replacement decision (as the rules are worded at this moment) would have to be made on the battlefield for Brisela, Voice of Nightmares, not Bruna, the Fading Light (again, setting aside the existence or lack there of this mystical "limbo zone" I may have just invented).
More holy crap... Changing names happens, yes. But not in this case.

Author:  Mockingbird [ 2016-Jul-05 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Epsilon wrote:
The fact that you're trying to find out what layer Meld operates at is a pretty big giveaway that you don't understand the underlying mechanics of the game. Layers interact with continuous effects. There is no continuous effect with meld. Meld is a state changing effect that turns two objects into one transformed object. There is NOTHING holding a transformed card on the back side. Something has to trigger to make it flip. There is NOTHING on the front of the card that dictates anything about what can or can't be on the back side of the card. We have artifacts that turn into creatures. Sorceries that turn into creatures. Creatures that turn into artifacts. Layers are not involved in any way. You have an object on the front side and a different object on the back side. For ease of display and coolness factor, the melded object is split over two cards instead of just showing the same on both or consolidating it on one.


I admit, you got me on layers. Still got a ways to go on them.

That being said, we're not disagreeing on the point your making in your post... in fact, this post supports the point much more potently than what I said because the reverse is also true: nothing about the back side can distinguish anything about the front side(s) *asterisk* while on the battlefield.

Epsilon wrote:
The exact mechanics of meld and any specific card interactions will be fully addressed when they put up the release notes and the official rules changes. Expect that to handle some corner cases and exactly how to handle the flip side casting cost. They may clarify the command zone replacement effect but that is a pretty obvious interaction.


After this discussion, they're *definitely* going to clarify it. :wink:


niheloim wrote:
Changing names happens, yes. But not in this case.


I really, really don't follow this because Brisela, Voice of Nightmares (a.k.a. a card not named Bruna, the Fading Light) cannot also be Bruna, the Fading Light at the same time. That sounds a lot like saying that Pithing Needle naming Arlinn Kord will stop the abilities of Arlinn, Embraced by the Moon should that side be face-up. Bruna is the first commander to be able to transfer her... commanderness?... to a card with a different name... well, I guess this also applies to Archangel Avacyn//Avacyn, the Purifier as well... but she's still only one card to begin with.

Anyway, point is when an instance of death comes and the player decides to initiate the replace "dying" with "returning to the command zone," Brisela, Voice of Nightmares is carrying the commander properties (as Brisela can inflict commander damage in Bruna's place), not Bruna, not Gisela, not Bruna+Gisela because those don't exist anymore within the game...UNTIL... after the replacement has been executed. By then, they're already *or tried to get to* their designated zone while as Brisela on the battlefield.

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-Jul-05 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

neither bruna nor gisela are changing names. Brisela enters the battlefield melded as a permanent object named Brisela.

Author:  JJackson [ 2016-Jul-05 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Plenty of commanders change names. The Mimeoplasm does it all the time, and any of them can be Mirrorwoven into something else or affected by Essence of the Wild. Akroma, Angel of Fury, can be morphed, giving her no name. Names have exactly nothing to do with commanderness. As I quoted earlier, the property of being a commander isn't something to do with the object represented by the card, it has to do with that actual physical card. It can't be copied or overwritten by anything.

Author:  zimagic [ 2016-Jul-06 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

This is all too complex. I just want to know what happens when Brisela dies and triggers my Angelic Renewal?

Author:  niheloim [ 2016-Jul-07 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

I don't think we can be certain how Brisela works with Angelic Renewal (or similar cards) just by speculating.

It could be that abilities like that which trigger when a creature Brisela dies can then operate on both the unmelded cards... or not. :)

Author:  zimagic [ 2016-Jul-07 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

niheloim wrote:
I don't think we can be certain how Brisela works with Angelic Renewal (or similar cards) just by speculating.

It could be that abilities like that which trigger when a creature Brisela dies can then operate on both the unmelded cards... or not. :)


:D
What would be extremely cool is if they both came back.

I presume that for things like Grave Pact it's one "dies" trigger but 2 creatures in the 'yard, yeah?

Author:  Sid the Chicken [ 2016-Jul-07 2:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: *EMN Spoiler* Meld and General rules

Mockingbird wrote:
Brisela is not two cards on the battlefield.


Actually she is. But she's only one creature permanent/object. The melded card deals commander damage because the commander card is part of the permanent that is dealing the damage.

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