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 Post subject: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-07 4:07 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-26 12:12 am
Age: Wyvern
In the past two weeks, the Reversed List has been roiled by buy outs, and now the prospect of Martin Shkreli entering the game to invest in the Reserved List has brought the issue to a head once again. What does that mean for Commander? I'm not sure, but it's something that I believe the Commander community should be discussing because a potential buy out of the Reserve List (and not necessarily by Shkreli or another rich person but by a panicked Magic community wanting to get the cards before they're bought up by someone else) could have an impact on the format just as much as it will on Legacy and Vintage.

Thoughts? Ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 12:14 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It probably doesn't mean anything.

Commander (unless you're taking it very seriously, at which point you're kind of out on your own limb) isn't so punishing that you need the optimal deck. Running a shockland instead of a dual is just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 12:37 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I am the owner of numerous duals. I don't run them in commander. In all the games I've played, I think running shocks instead of duals AND shocks has materially impacted me literally one time. (I had already fetched my Shock of the color combination I wanted.)

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 5:32 am 
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crokaycete wrote:
I am the owner of numerous duals. I don't run them in commander. In all the games I've played, I think running shocks instead of duals AND shocks has materially impacted me literally one time. (I had already fetched my Shock of the color combination I wanted.)


I'm in the same boat. I took out my ABUR duals from my commander decks long ago. I can't say I've ever noticed it being an issue. (I took them out to prove the point that you don't need them.)

I've never even been tempted to put them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 6:11 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
crokaycete wrote:
In all the games I've played, I think running shocks instead of duals AND shocks has materially impacted me literally one time. (I had already fetched my Shock of the color combination I wanted.)

That is normally the impact I've felt. I have a 1x set of them and don't proxy them. With 10-15 decks at a time, that means some don't get the ABUR dual. The BFZ duals has made that much less important for the allied color ones; the difference between Watery Grave+Sunken Hollow and Watery Grave+Underground Sea is very minor unless you are in a super competitive metagame.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 7:12 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Duals are no the only thing on the reserve list. However, most of the reserve list stuff is scarcely 'necessary' to most play.

I have stuff like Moat that was recently bought out, but my general impression is that the cutoff of players being priced out of Moat at $600 is minimally different from the players who were priced out of Moat at $200. Something like that barely matters, to me, because you don't really need Moat. It's just really freaking good, but it's not a format where you need that like you need it in Vintage vs Eldrazi.

As commander players, what conversation exactly are we to be having? I don't see any of affecting the format.

Maybe the Library buy out means now it really never will be unbanned.

Other stuff like City/LED is not ubiquitous/perceived ubiquitous, even though it can go in any deck, so the price increase undoubtedly is not cause to be concerned for a ban.

Certainly none of this is going to cause an unban, i presume.

So i think effects are nil except for those were about to buy a Moat for control (even though it's a luxury item not a need item) or an LED for storm (i deck i have actually only seen once and presume is not at all popular).

It's mostly just frustration because we all wish we had the bankroll to buy all the stuff we want, or at least the foreknowledge to pick up specs/needs before they boom. Or it is for me, anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-08 3:21 pm 
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Age: Wyvern
Sovarius wrote:
As commander players, what conversation exactly are we to be having? I don't see any of affecting the format.


I'm not entirely sure myself. It's kind of like, "So this thing is happening with a good chunk of the cards people play around with, including this format... what now?"

I do see it having some effect on the format. Duals aside, there is a number of other cards on the reserved list, for example Legendary Creatures, that would impact the format. No. 1 I notice on this list is Sliver Queen, which is central to both Slivers and a common general in Superfriends.


But there is one distinction I would like to point out. "Not necessary" is by no means the same as "not played." What this means is that it could create an even greater disparity between players that go all in on their deck and those that want to go all in, which is the problem in Vintage, a growing problem with Legacy. That's not to say that I support a great equalizing of card access in the physical cards (considering that probably already exists in certain places online and through playgroups approving proxies,) but Commander is sold as the format where that's supposed to matter least, and some strategies already already only seeing a narrow audience *see Sliver Queen*, and if all the panic over the reserved list happens, it seems likely to at the least have a psychological impact on Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-09 2:30 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not necessary and not played are two whole different things for sure, but of all the reserve list cards used in the format the vast majority in my experience has been Duals, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, and Survival of the Fittest (and Cradle if it were cheap). Off the top of my head right this second, i don't even know of any others. Stuff like Moat, Tabernacle, Workshop, Candelabra, Guardian Beast, both Diamonds, and City of Traitors, are not for everyone or for every deck.

Duals have replacements, and honestly unless it's 5c, fetches are way more important that having ABUR duals when you have the Rav and Zen duals already.
Vault and Monolith have very subpar replacements, but they do have them.
Queen is sort of a shame, but she has replacements too (and i usually hear Sliver Overlord is better since he tutors all others, including queen).
Not a terrible amount of playable legends from Legends, and some were even in Chronicles anyway. It's basically Angus, Adun and Tetsuo, i think? (arguable, Tetsuo is not even playable an was strictly the Tiny Leaders nonsense).

We should remember though, that while the RL does contain a lot of OP cards, playable RL cards make up a small portion of the card pool.

Psychological impacts are always imminent. There are an awful lot of people crying the sky is falling because Shkreli wants to collect magic cards. It can't be avoided, really. I think the format as a whole is actually fine though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-09 4:23 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Sovarius wrote:
Not necessary and not played are two whole different things for sure, but of all the reserve list cards used in the format the vast majority in my experience has been Duals, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, and Survival of the Fittest (and Cradle if it were cheap).

Mana Vault is not on the Reserved List. It was reprinted in both 4th and 5th Edition. I'm actually surprised it hasn't found its way into a Commander precon or Eternal Masters by now.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 8:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Sovarius wrote:
my general impression is that the cutoff of players being priced out of Moat at $600 is minimally different from the players who were priced out of Moat at $200.

On top of that, what's the percentage of players that are priced out of cards once they reach the tens of dollars? Really high, I suspect.

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 12:01 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I personally think the reserve list could go away without any real issues. player perception is the big problem- no one wants to think wizards is greedy or a bunch of liars, and the reserve list helps keep those accusations at bay.

However, if the policy ever starts to impact EDH like it has vintage and legacy, I suspect we might all of us change our tunes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 12:04 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
tarnar wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
my general impression is that the cutoff of players being priced out of Moat at $600 is minimally different from the players who were priced out of Moat at $200.

On top of that, what's the percentage of players that are priced out of cards once they reach the tens of dollars? Really high, I suspect.

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

there are a lot of cards I pass up because I'm not willing to pay for them. theres a reason I dont run Time Stretch in more decks, and its not because I'm anti-extra-turn. its a dollar rare selling for 10.

but on the other hand I dont mind dropping 40 for a sword of fire and ice.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 12:31 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
Mana Vault is not on the Reserved List. It was reprinted in both 4th and 5th Edition. I'm actually surprised it hasn't found its way into a Commander precon or Eternal Masters by now.

Oops, my mistake.

tarnar wrote:
On top of that, what's the percentage of players that are priced out of cards once they reach the tens of dollars? Really high, I suspect.

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Actually, yeah. From my experiences there are few people who actually have multiples of ZEN fetches, much less the right colors or proper amounts to more than 1 deck if they play other formats.

niheloim wrote:
I personally think the reserve list could go away without any real issues. player perception is the big problem- no one wants to think wizards is greedy or a bunch of liars, and the reserve list helps keep those accusations at bay.

Why do you think that? I don't think the amount of money they could sell sealed product for (especially at the small amounts they do 'master' sets at already) to have a net gain after litigation. Then, you have a lot of collateral trust issues that would hurt business i think.

niheloim wrote:
However, if the policy ever starts to impact EDH like it has vintage and legacy, I suspect we might all of us change our tunes.

Not me. Reserve List hasn't priced me out of legacy and i could have made more jumps into vintage-only staples by now if i chose.

Like i said here before, there's so little on the reserve list a commander player needs. People need to accept that cards are a luxury. The more people priced out of RL cards in commander means the more people you will play against who do not have them, anyway, meaning you don't need them.

On a related note, i kind of wish people would just stop trying to build 3 color decks and suck it up and play tier 2 decks in legacy that don't need duals. Or play a small number of shocks and INN duals and just suck up to Wasteland. I sort of think eventually people are so priced out of duals, that there enough people in a tournament (not GP/Open size, but you know, local) also playing with shocks you can get by a little easier. I mean i have more duals more than most of the people around me combined, but if they all wanted to play legacy and stop whining about the price points, they'd all be on the same disadvantage with shocks. Do you lose to people with duals? Yes. Idk, oh well. When i didn't have expensive or fancy cards i still played for fun. Though of course i get it, i would not pay $30 for a tournament with any real frequency if i expected to lose, which is also why people are adamant about having duals and not playing monocolor.
I know, i'm crazy, and people shouldn't have to subject themselves to a losing position, but still.

niheloim wrote:
there are a lot of cards I pass up because I'm not willing to pay for them. theres a reason I dont run Time Stretch in more decks, and its not because I'm anti-extra-turn. its a dollar rare selling for 10.

Then it's not a dollar rare. I don't understand that part. But i mean i get it, if you mean "it's not $10 to me, i don't get $10 of use out of it". $10 is not at all "a lot" but it sure is if you have handfuls of $10 cards per deck and want several decks.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So far it has only been stuff like Moat and LED. Some people are suggesting that dual lands could be in the firing line and some people have already begun pre-buying them to not get caught out.

Im not too worried about those, as stated above, dual lands and super powerful cards aren't really required for commander. What I am really worried about is, what will we do if they come for our teferi's imp? Sure it's only 50c now, but who knows what could happen if Skreli goes all in on a buy out.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-11 6:01 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
I started buying RL cards last year. Not to speculate, just cards I could use like duals. I'm not a wealthy heir of the family fortune and estates, and have a wife and kids, so I can't afford to splash money on every single card I would like.

But for duals, I made an exception, because I'm hoping that they will keep their value. If for some reason I will ever need money so badly that I need to sell cards, I trust I'll at least get my money back for them. Also it's a nice long term project, every now and then when I come into some extra cash from doing extra hours or something, I can reward myself with a dual. I got 4 of them now, 6 to go.

I'm more annoyed at Standard and modern pushing prices for cards I like than Vintage. I mean, there are a couple of cards on the RL I'd like (Duals, Guardian Beast, The Abyss, Forcefield, maybe a couple more), but I could very well do without. You really don't need RL cards to play commander, but if you only have been playing magic for the last 5 years, offcourse your card pool will severely limit your options.

I hate it when new sets arrive, and there are very nice cards I can't wait to play with, but you have to wait untill the new set excitement calmes down. I did a quick check yesterday, on cardmarket.eu the most expensive card in BFZ is Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, at about 12€ (15$?). After that, it's a pretty big dropoff, with only 3 more cards in the 2€-5€ range. All BFZ duals you can pick up at about 1,50€ a piece. You could save 70, 80% on the purchase of the cards you like in a new set by waiting a year.

That price bubble bugs me more than RL spikes. I think the buyout hysteria will soon settle down, and in time the RL market will partially fix itself. For thing like LED it's too late, they'll never become the same price as they were 5 years ago, but many other stuff sees spikes now because of fear for buyouts, not actual buyouts. The impact on commander however will be marginal I think, new players will have less oppportunity to pick op old goodies, but will find enough support in the commander expansions to quickly be able to put their foot next to all but the most powerfull decks.


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