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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 6:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The point is you will hit cards that will propel you ahead. Once that Rhystic Study sticks, you no longer care as much about the draw for the turn. since you're likely drawing on everyone else's turn. Similarly, once you hit that Yavimaya Elder the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant because you're guaranteed to hit drops 4-6 as soon as it hits play. Once Tezzeret hits play, the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant since you can search out your sol ring, your artifact lands, your mox opal, or just untap your dynamo/lotus. Once Land Tax hits play, the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant. Once Crucible of Worlds hits play (with a fetch), the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant.

You're statistically going to hit five lands on curve and from there the game will have taken over. When the game takes over, do you want six extra lands or six extra gas? There are so many CHEAP options in this format to guarantee you hit your land drops. On top of that it's a format where card draw is king. If you're running sufficient card draw, you'll hit all your land drops guaranteed.

More often then not I'm on par or ahead on lands from the rest of the table that does run 37+ lands.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 7:07 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
The point is you will hit cards that will propel you ahead. Once that Rhystic Study sticks, you no longer care as much about the draw for the turn.
Maybe. I'll often pay the 1 mana because I know how powerful it is to let a blue player draw without spending additional resources.
Quote:
Similarly, once you hit that Yavimaya Elder the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant because you're guaranteed to hit drops 4-6 as soon as it hits play.
This only matters when the deck can run well on 4-6 mana. I think the issue is that a lot of players are swinging for the fences with 7 and 8 drops which changes the average for when games get going.

I have decks along the spectrum. Animar takes off very quickly so much that I've intentionally slowed it down. Other decks do stuff in the first couple of turns, but they really want to get into the 8 mana range to do the big goofy stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 7:35 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
For the duel lands it is all about efficiency and synergy in 2 color decks. using your second or third fetch for multiple duel lands has often been very important for me in my decks. Mostly for turns 1-6 to ensure I don't get locked out of playing certain spells.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 8:22 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The point is you will hit cards that will propel you ahead. Once that Rhystic Study sticks, you no longer care as much about the draw for the turn.
Maybe. I'll often pay the 1 mana because I know how powerful it is to let a blue player draw without spending additional resources.
Quote:
Similarly, once you hit that Yavimaya Elder the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant because you're guaranteed to hit drops 4-6 as soon as it hits play.
This only matters when the deck can run well on 4-6 mana. I think the issue is that a lot of players are swinging for the fences with 7 and 8 drops which changes the average for when games get going.

I have decks along the spectrum. Animar takes off very quickly so much that I've intentionally slowed it down. Other decks do stuff in the first couple of turns, but they really want to get into the 8 mana range to do the big goofy stuff.


From my experience with Rhystic Study, the "smart players" will pay for a turn or two while the less experienced or mana screwed players will let you draw. Then the smart players will start to let you draw as well since the other players aren't taking the tax.

As for the Elder example, you're at 3 lands when you sac for +2 lands and a draw. Your next 3 turns can be anything until you start missing land drops again. It's not that you're "done" at 6 mana it's that you're guaranteed those land drops. One card effectively guarantees your land drops for the next three turns. You might not quite be all the way to your haymakers by that point but you certainly aren't mana screwed.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 10:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The point is you will hit cards that will propel you ahead. Once that Rhystic Study sticks, you no longer care as much about the draw for the turn.
Maybe. I'll often pay the 1 mana because I know how powerful it is to let a blue player draw without spending additional resources.
Quote:
Similarly, once you hit that Yavimaya Elder the number of lands in your deck is irrelevant because you're guaranteed to hit drops 4-6 as soon as it hits play.
This only matters when the deck can run well on 4-6 mana. I think the issue is that a lot of players are swinging for the fences with 7 and 8 drops which changes the average for when games get going.

I have decks along the spectrum. Animar takes off very quickly so much that I've intentionally slowed it down. Other decks do stuff in the first couple of turns, but they really want to get into the 8 mana range to do the big goofy stuff.


From my experience with Rhystic Study, the "smart players" will pay for a turn or two while the less experienced or mana screwed players will let you draw. Then the smart players will start to let you draw as well since the other players aren't taking the tax.

As for the Elder example, you're at 3 lands when you sac for +2 lands and a draw. Your next 3 turns can be anything until you start missing land drops again. It's not that you're "done" at 6 mana it's that you're guaranteed those land drops. One card effectively guarantees your land drops for the next three turns. You might not quite be all the way to your haymakers by that point but you certainly aren't mana screwed.


smart players blow up a rhystic study.

And I agree with the elder. Its a powerful card. but if you're running too few lands you might not draw anymore. its just been my experience that too few lands requires too many dedicated slots to developing mana and games run too similarly, or someone gets mana screwed.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 2:15 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-26 12:12 am
Age: Wyvern
So something interesting is coming out of Tumblr that I thought I would share.

One of the major blogs is now running an independent survey on the Reserved List. One of the interesting points in the survey is it asks if instead of advocating for the end of the Reserved List, players should advocate for removing the Reserved List from Commander. To be fair, it lists all formats where Reserved List cards are Legal individually, but we're on the Commander Forum.

https://tmblr.co/ZFD6Jy29CSjcV (should you want to see it and/or take it.)

It also seems to be an interesting option because a friend I talked to yesterday said that Commander spiked the Reserved List market, not Legacy.

I'm not sure how much this contributes to the discussion, but it seems like an angle worth mentioning.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-12 9:25 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm not sure I understand. The reserved list is a reprint policy, so you can't remove it "from commander". You could possibly ban reserved list cards from commander, but as many have noted, the vast majority of RL cards are neither valuable nor powerful.

Edit: After following several links to the actual survey, There are options to make RL cards "illegible for play" in Vintage, Legacy, and Commander. Leaving aside how one might do this while leaving them legible in other formats, :wink: it seems clear that someone doesn't understand the formats and their goals very well. My point about the broad spectrum of power and value RL cards have stands, as well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 3:55 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Vintage or Legacy without RL cards is about as exiting as Modern. I guess these options are only in the list to give the poll some legitimacy, it can keep up the appearance that this poll is about something else than Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 6:10 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Who would want to play Vintage without the Reserve List? That's illegible.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 6:18 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Vintage simply doesn't work without RL cards. Power defines the format. Legacy losing abur duals would make it a completely different format, but if wotc printed some kind of replacement for those (snow duals, for example) it would be roughly the same. It would have slightly more impact than a ban of LED, City of Traitors, and Cradle. Most of the other RL stuff is either minor sb material or kills an unpopular archetype.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 6:51 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Legacy losing abur duals would make it a completely different format, but if wotc printed some kind of replacement for those (snow duals, for example) it would be roughly the same.


They can't. The reserved list prohibits functional reprints. Adding Snow to the type line doesn't change the functionality enough to get around the rules. They'd have to be legendary which defeats the purpose. They also can't produce enough product in a non standard legal set to provide enough of them to not fall into exactly the same issues with those.

At this point, for Vintage and Legacy to survive outside of MTGO they just have to get rid of the reserved list. They've proven with the last three "masters" sets that they won't ruin collector value by flooding the market like they did with Chronicles. If I had to bet, I would say the RL will be gone in the next 3-4 years at most.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 8:26 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
(the following answer is not meant to be taken seriously)

The current policy allows for colour shifting cards (see Donate / Harmless Offering), so all they need to do is:

Not Taiga
Land - Mountain Forest
Not Taiga is Red and Green
(T, add R or G to your mana pool)

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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 8:44 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
(the following answer is not meant to be taken seriously)

The current policy allows for colour shifting cards (see Donate / Harmless Offering), so all they need to do is:

Not Taiga
Land - Mountain Forest
Not Taiga is Red and Green
(T, add R or G to your mana pool)


Harmless Offering is target opponent, not target player so it's not really a color shifted reprint. You lose the whole possibility of stealing something temporarily and donating it to yourself permanently.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 9:36 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
The reserved list prohibits functional reprints. Adding Snow to the type line doesn't change the functionality enough to get around the rules.

Perhaps not just making it snow ... but, making it legendary wouldn't get past the reserve list either.

Quote:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.


Nothing about adding/removing/changing super types makes it not functionally the same. (a shame really - 'cause that does make it functionally different in the game.)

All they have to do is "if Not Taiga enters the battlefield and you don't control another forest or mountain, you lose 1 life." It's a one point issue so are tactically weaker, but most of the time not bad. And all you need is another land of one of those types to bypass it.

If you're an aggro deck, you search up this first. If you're control, you search up a shock land into play tapped if you can, then search these ones up.


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 Post subject: Re: The Reserved List and Commander?
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-13 12:23 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Carthain wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
The reserved list prohibits functional reprints. Adding Snow to the type line doesn't change the functionality enough to get around the rules.

Perhaps not just making it snow ... but, making it legendary wouldn't get past the reserve list either.

Quote:
Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form. A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.


Nothing about adding/removing/changing super types makes it not functionally the same. (a shame really - 'cause that does make it functionally different in the game.)

All they have to do is "if Not Taiga enters the battlefield and you don't control another forest or mountain, you lose 1 life." It's a one point issue so are tactically weaker, but most of the time not bad. And all you need is another land of one of those types to bypass it.

If you're an aggro deck, you search up this first. If you're control, you search up a shock land into play tapped if you can, then search these ones up.

Fair point, if a fine one. They could, however, just slap Tribal on it. They could also make a land subtype change that would have no effect but meet their functional change criteria.

Not Taiga
Urza's Forest Mountain


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