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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 7:03 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Declaration of stone is unrestricted, it does not come without a drawback though. Its also exile and not destroy, which the example was illustrating virtually only happens in combat as.punishment effect.
Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring exile, again different than destroy, and white unrestricted also have a drawback.
All 3 of those have a flavorful drawback that allows it to be unrestricted.
Actually, i think bringing up any of these is pretty close to missing the point anyway.

Scholar uses black magic, not white, and doesnt count.
Shahrazad is weird, but its hardly unconditional or life 'drain'. I dont see how you can have a straight face and use Shahrazad as an example of anything color pie related.
Stern Judge is one and hardly points to 'white regularly causes loss of life'.
These 3 combined is not 'regularly causes loss of life'.
The majority of white life drain is w/b color cards, deliberately color-bled cards, and the extort mechanic.


lifelink is not remotely life drain, like extort or exsanguination cards. Lifelink is combat damage, doesnt need to be againt another players life. The flsvor is the creature gains life, whether damaging a creature or a player (which incidentally causes them to lose life), and is a far cry from being an ability that just says "you there, hey, im gonna use my white magic to drain your life". A monowhite creature with a nonblack ability that unconditionally drains life, or triggers the same as extort, is hugely different that Seeker of the Way. How does that need to be said?

Re: Prodigal Sorcerer - while blue is clever and color pies were less eatablished ages ago, there is too much blue burn for me to believe that it was simply about being clever and mimicking abilities. It was about mental attacks, it was absolutely color pie.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 9:56 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
Declaration of stone is unrestricted, it does not come without a drawback though. Its also exile and not destroy, which the example was illustrating virtually only happens in combat as.punishment effect.
Journey to Nowhere and Oblivion Ring exile, again different than destroy, and white unrestricted also have a drawback.
All 3 of those have a flavorful drawback that allows it to be unrestricted.
Actually, i think bringing up any of these is pretty close to missing the point anyway.

This. White doesn't simply kill/exile things. It either temporarily neutralizes them (Arrest, Oblivion Ring), gives something in exchange (Path to Exile, Declaration in Stone), is restricted by some action/quality (Divine Verdict, Smite the Monstrous, Last Breath, Reciprocate), or just sweeps everything (Wrath of God et al.). There are a few examples outside of this, but they are rarely done and generally extremely expensive (Iona's Judgment, Trostani's Judgment).

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The majority of white life drain is w/b color cards, deliberately color-bled cards, and the extort mechanic.

I found another one that only requires white mana while drafting last night that I missed in my earlier gatherer search because of its CI. Pious Evangel is life drain in a white card, but doesn't actually drain life until it has flipped to its black face.

cheethorne wrote:
I think Cipher might be the worst of them given how connected it is to creatures in a colour pair that is probably the worst at creatures.
UB is at least a color noted for its saboteur triggers, which Cipher grants. It is a bad gameplay fit, but at least you can design a monoblack or a monoblue Cipher card that doesn't twist the color pie.

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But aside from that, gaining life by making your opponent lose life is within the BW colour pair and it would be a worse fit in every other colour pair with Black.
Right, draining life is BW or monoblack but not monowhite. It makes it a fine ability for a lot of cards in the Orzhov guild, but is just weird on ones that might never touch black mana.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 3:33 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ultimately, every plane that features BW cards uses the mechanic, it's very easy to say it's not just a flavor fail of extort. Black is the king of loss of life with white being the runner up. White is the king of life gain with black being the runner up. Seems like a perfect fit for BW even if B can do it by itself. White could theoretically do it by itself as well because it's very heavily a Cleric ability and Clerics are very solidly white. The same could NOT be said about some of the other guild's mechanics so saying extort is "the worst thematically" is just not true.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-23 8:17 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Can I bring us back to the fact that none of this, not one bit addresses the topic which is why extort should not be allowed in commander. Perhaps extort does not make sense within the white colour pie. Debate that as you will, but if that was grounds for putting cards out of the format you would probably have to throw out a lot of the planar chaos set.

In addition we have not addressed the problem of actually generating rules which function elegantly and appropriately to stop extort but not anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 12:53 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
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Location: Boston
specter404 wrote:
Can I bring us back to the fact that none of this, not one bit addresses the topic which is why extort should not be allowed in commander. Perhaps extort does not make sense within the white colour pie. Debate that as you will, but if that was grounds for putting cards out of the format you would probably have to throw out a lot of the planar chaos set.

In addition we have not addressed the problem of actually generating rules which function elegantly and appropriately to stop extort but not anything else.

You could probably actually roll extort and basic lands into one rule. Something along the lines of "Cards with abilities derived from the comprehensive rules are considered to have the full text of the relevant ability printed in the card." Likely you make a pair of examples for clarity: one basic land and one extort.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 5:01 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Epsilon wrote:
Black is the king of loss of life with white being the runner up. White is the king of life gain with black being the runner up. Seems like a perfect fit for BW even if B can do it by itself.

You are splitting things out way to much. Black gains life, sure, but it is almost always designed as it taking life from somewhere. Of all of the black life gain cards, there are a total of 7 that don't deplete another resource to fuel the life drain: Underworld Coinsmith (who is also white), Spoils of Evil (which had life gain to offset mana burn), Triskaidekaphobia (which is more of a life total adjuster than a life gain spell), Sol'Kanar, Sapling of Colfenor, From Under the Floorboards, and Vampire Envoy. Everything else is either taking life from opponents, gaining life from creatures dying, eating dudes out of graveyards, or gaining life by dealing damage.

And white is only runner up for life loss because of Extort. Among white cards that don't require black mana to make an opponent lose life, literally half are Extort cards (4 and 4). One poorly executed mechanic in one set shouldn't be taken as a way of defining the color pie.

Extort is perfectly fine as a mechanic within Orzhov, but I stand by my statement that it is crap as a definitive mechanic of the guild. It works fine on black cards, it works fine on black/white cards, but it falls apart when it comes to the monowhite members of the Orzhov guild.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 7:11 am 
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JJackson wrote:
You could probably actually roll extort and basic lands into one rule. Something along the lines of "Cards with abilities derived from the comprehensive rules are considered to have the full text of the relevant ability printed in the card." Likely you make a pair of examples for clarity: one basic land and one extort.

Yup, I agree.

I think they will eventually print more cards like this with mechanics that bury some mana symbols, so getting ahead of such changes now makes sense to me.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 9:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Black is the king of loss of life with white being the runner up. White is the king of life gain with black being the runner up. Seems like a perfect fit for BW even if B can do it by itself.

You are splitting things out way to much. Black gains life, sure, but it is almost always designed as it taking life from somewhere. Of all of the black life gain cards, there are a total of 7 that don't deplete another resource to fuel the life drain: Underworld Coinsmith (who is also white), Spoils of Evil (which had life gain to offset mana burn), Triskaidekaphobia (which is more of a life total adjuster than a life gain spell), Sol'Kanar, Sapling of Colfenor, From Under the Floorboards, and Vampire Envoy. Everything else is either taking life from opponents, gaining life from creatures dying, eating dudes out of graveyards, or gaining life by dealing damage.

And white is only runner up for life loss because of Extort. Among white cards that don't require black mana to make an opponent lose life, literally half are Extort cards (4 and 4). One poorly executed mechanic in one set shouldn't be taken as a way of defining the color pie.
how many life loss effects are in blue rec and green? White might be runner up with those 4 non-extort examples. Anf if that is the case, extort looks more and more like a rare-though-still white ability.

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Extort is perfectly fine as a mechanic within Orzhov, but I stand by my statement that it is crap as a definitive mechanic of the guild. It works fine on black cards, it works fine on black/white cards, but it falls apart when it comes to the monowhite members of the Orzhov guild.

black/white mechanic for black/white guild? I dont see how thats crap.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 11:04 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
niheloim wrote:
how many life loss effects are in blue rec and green? White might be runner up with those 4 non-extort examples. Anf if that is the case, extort looks more and more like a rare-though-still white ability.
I did the counts earlier and don't remember exactly, but the ranking was blue>red (though they were mostly life loss from gambling/bidding mechanics)>white>green (leaving out cards that were black or required black for their activation). All of them were single digit numbers. I think life loss is one of the most tightly held pieces of the color pie since it is so overwhelmingly black.

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black/white mechanic for black/white guild? I dont see how thats crap.

It is a black AND white mechanic for a black OR white guild. All of the other guild mechanics (even going back to original Ravnica block) feel fine when you make a mono card with them in either color. Monowhite Extort cards are really weird.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-24 2:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cheethorne wrote:
I think they will eventually print more cards like this with mechanics that bury some mana symbols, so getting ahead of such changes now makes sense to me.

I have to disagree here. The items are covered just fine now, and do not require a new rule. IF more showed up, maybe its something to address, but without knowing how it land with CI, making a rule now that does not work later is a waste.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-25 3:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
JJackson wrote:
niheloim wrote:
how many life loss effects are in blue rec and green? White might be runner up with those 4 non-extort examples. Anf if that is the case, extort looks more and more like a rare-though-still white ability.
I did the counts earlier and don't remember exactly, but the ranking was blue>red (though they were mostly life loss from gambling/bidding mechanics)>white>green (leaving out cards that were black or required black for their activation). All of them were single digit numbers. I think life loss is one of the most tightly held pieces of the color pie since it is so overwhelmingly black.
outside of new phyrexia (cuz phyrexians be all about the black) no color has a legitimate life loss effect that I can find. Red gets it for payments (bidding and such), blue and green get some old taxing effects, theres the one Time Spiral throwback to nafs asp. More recently we see things like parasitic strix... mono blue but affiliated with black... not unlike orzhov.

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black/white mechanic for black/white guild? I dont see how thats crap.

It is a black AND white mechanic for a black OR white guild. All of the other guild mechanics (even going back to original Ravnica block) feel fine when you make a mono card with them in either color. Monowhite Extort cards are really weird.

how can you make the guild Black or white? Yes, individual members might be monocolored, but the guild is always both. This is why extort fits flavorwise on anything orzhov, but outside of that feels odd on monowhite mechanically.

dont think life loss fits into any color other than black. other colors can get get, but only recently through affiliation with black. It works fine flavorwise, but feels a little weird divorced from those contexts.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-25 10:38 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think that Strix is using black magic, too. Even though Scholar is easily more obvious because it's a black ability requiring no white mana, Strix is pretty clearly using black magic, albeit more borrowed/limited because it needs a different black magic user nearby.

Re: Sapling, even though nothing in the game mechanically changes, her ability is essentially gaining from the life essence of you adding creatures your arsenal in some way. On the actual mechanical side, it's a green and black card, and green can gain life.

Re: From Under the Floorboards, i actually remember when this was spoiled a few people were like "wtf is this life gain".

I don't mind mono-white cards having extort at all, but i have trouble thinking i'm not supposed to pretending it's black and white magic. Knight of Obligation is fine for life drain imo, but i am also 'aware' that he is a white magic card that uses black magic (black/white magic)


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-25 11:49 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
niheloim wrote:
how can you make the guild Black or white? Yes, individual members might be monocolored, but the guild is always both.
That's what I'm saying. The guild itself is both. It is comprised of individuals that may be monocolored. An ability that is supposed to represent the totality of the guild should be at least a passable mechanical fit on monoB, monoW, or B/W cards. As it is, Extort as the representative mechanic suggests that the black aspects of the church of deals are more important than the white ones.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-25 12:25 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bloodrush, cipher and evolve aren't especially green, black and blue mechanics respectively, but we don't worry about them because there is no mana symbol involved.

If the argument is purely, "this shouldnt be done in mono white" then I refer you back to the point that lots of cards bend and break the colour pie, that doesnt mean we should force them into the colours we think they should be.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case Against Extort in Mono decks.
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-25 2:20 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
JJackson wrote:
niheloim wrote:
how can you make the guild Black or white? Yes, individual members might be monocolored, but the guild is always both.
That's what I'm saying. The guild itself is both. It is comprised of individuals that may be monocolored. An ability that is supposed to represent the totality of the guild should be at least a passable mechanical fit on monoB, monoW, or B/W cards. As it is, Extort as the representative mechanic suggests that the black aspects of the church of deals are more important than the white ones.

meh... I like the fact its a solidly black-white ability.

I dont like the hybrid symbol ruining the aesthetic for my monocolored applications.

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