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 Post subject: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 8:30 am 

Joined: 2015-Oct-26 10:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
With the recent sets being all about the much beloved tentacle monsters of Magic, I have the urge to talk about the only banned eldrazi card in EDH, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
When you tell people it's banned they usually just quickly nod and accept that the most powerful creature in a vacuum can't be played. But why shouldn't it be? Here's the reasoning we got to see 6 years ago:

Quote:
This is one on which we listened heavily to what the community was saying, and nearly without exception, everyone hates Emrakul. It’s a card that makes the game devolve into a war over a single card whenever it hits the table. Add to that the fact that its combination of abilities made is seriously unfun to play against. We had already had our eye on it, and when the community spoke, we listened.


The first point instantly struck me: "listened heavily to what the community was saying" and "everyone hates Emrakul". "The community" is very vocal about everything that upsets it, but people who read about other people being upset usually do not articulate their opposing view on the matter, they just think to themselves "that person doesn't know how to deal with this thing because they are not good at the game" which is usually true.
Like this thread
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=774
is mostly a giant compilation of complaints from people who are not capable of identifying the right answers to their problems.
So I think a lot of people DO like Emrakul but they are not so vocal about it. But let me tell you I would definetly love to resolve her or even just try to. To me, Emmy is the most Timmy card there is in Magic and I play EDH to release the Timmy(and have him make out with the Johnny).
Then it goes on "It’s a card that makes the game devolve into a war over a single card whenever it hits the table."
I'll just briefly mention Hermit Druid or Jhoira of the Ghitu or all the others here because there is a much more intuitive point to be made: the exact same is true for the other titans! And Ulamog is sooo much harder to deal with! Almost everyone runs wraths in their deck, but Swords to Plowshares? Not remotely as many.
And then it finishes with "Add to that the fact that its combination of abilities made is seriously unfun to play against."
C'mon. There is so much crap out there that is unfun to play against that I can't accept this. Ever seen a tuned Meren deck? Jhoira? Arcum Dagsson? Azami? Talrand? Arbiter IV? Zur? AdNaus? Do you need more? Ban them all or don't make that point, please.
So I'm left confused why Emmy is banned now six years after. People and playgroups have evolved and the game has, too. We got Summary Dismissal now. Bribery keeps any big creature in check. The last sets had a lot of wraths everyone can play, we even got Merciless Eviction. There's wraths, edicts, exile-counters, tap effects and more and everyone can play them, hell, Icy Manipulator can be run in every deck and it's a great card!
There are very few card that can cheat out Emrakul early and if someone does that, these people will build that kind of deck with or without Emmy. If they can cheat out Emmy, they can build Hermit Druid, AdNaus, Waste Not Combo etc. it's the same issue.
The only true issue is not being prepared for something that will win the game. You can see Emrakul coming like five turns ahead. You know that it's in your friend's deck. HOLD THE ANSWER. Don't plow that Phage. Don't path that Kresh. Don't mindbreak trap that spell for 0 'cause you can. Hold it, it's an answer.

If Tooth and Nail is an 8 on the unfun-impossible-to-beat-hated-everywhere scale, and Hermit Druid is a 9, and AdNaus is a 10, Emmy must be around 7. She's not that hard to deal with(try to interact with an AdNaus in a good deck, heh), you know she's coming and it takes 15(!) mana to cast her. Everyone who's played Kozilek or Azusa as a general knows how much that is. It's a lot more that 10 I can tell you.
So please rethink your stance on the one eldrazi EDH-players around the world are still being deprived of and embrace the joy you will experience when you just go Big Game Hunter on that big, bad jellyfish.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 1:38 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
1. The "silent majority" argument isn't valid because there is no way to measure to what extent it is true.

2. Primeval Titan, Sundering Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Griselbrand, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror, and Coalition Victory are all examples of heavy Timmy cards. So are other cards that aren't banned but heavily despised like Iona or any of the Praetors.

3. Hermit Druid is a Spike card that ends the game instantly when used and is only even useful in a deck dedicated to breaking it. Jhoira is a slow Timmy card that is easy to play around and honestly isn't even that powerful competitively. Emrakul is a card that centers the game around it virtually every time it sees play, regardless of what deck it's in or what the board state is. It also doesn't help its case that it is legal in literally every deck.

4. "Ban all of them or don't make that point" is not a legitimate argument; if the RC banned all annoying or unfun cards the list would be 500 cards long and the format would probably die. The RC's goal is not genocide of all annoying cards, but merely sniping the very worst offenders. And none of the cards you listed have the same ubiquity as Emrakul, nor are any of them anything but fine unless specifically built in an annoying fashion.

5. You talk about how "few ways to cheat it out" there are, then offer Bribery and like cards as answers. What is the logical difference between cheating out your own and Briberying your opponent's?

6. "Answers exist" is not an argument. Every single card that's ever been printed has answers.

7. If "not using your removal on a powerful card like Kresh because of the mere threat of Emrakul" is an actual strategic decision, that is a sign that Emrakul is negatively warping the format.

8. Cheating it out and/or ramping to 15 mana are not as difficult as you're making it sound. Any deck with green in it or monoblack can EASILY hit that number (oftentimes off a single mana source).

9. It doesn't matter if it is cheated out early; it has a pretty nasty effect pretty much regardless of when it hits play.

10. All of your arguments steer toward "oh, Emrakul isn't THAT bad", which would be great if we were discussing whether or not to ban it. But the actual discussion going on is "it's banned, should it stay." Now, the only way it is coming off is if you actually propose a compelling argument for how it makes the format better.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 1:46 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
For one, Emrakul is probably on the Top 5 list of creatures you don't want to see on the other side of the table, right up there with Sundering Titan. Can it be answered? Sure, but not reliably, especially at instant speed. And holding a narrow answer just to deal with a single card in the 99 of an opponent's deck across multiple games is pretty close to the definition of format-warping.

For another, Emmy doesn't work well in a multiplayer environment. It's a card that, at it's worst performance, will come out and either immediately kill a player or cripple them before it goes away. That player then gets to watch everyone else have a good time without him.

Emrakul also triggers a hell of an arms race. Get briberied? It's going to be the target. Clone hits the board? It's the target. When it hits the battlefield, you get one. If you can't, you get left in the dust and ground into it by everyone who does.

Probably the single biggest offender, however, is that Emrakul has absolutely zero opportunity cost. You get an extra turn just by casting it. If it gets removed before you ever get to swing, you just untap your lands like nothing happened after you pass. Even if they manage to remove it AND stifle the cast trigger, you just burned two cards out of your opponent for your one: a net positive.

To top all this off, it's a lot harder for a card to get unbanned than it is for one to get banned. In addition to proving that the card is no longer a banned list offender, the RC has to determine that unbanning the card will be adding something positive to EDH as a whole. So long as the RC feels that it doesn't (even if it's a card that doesn't necessarily bring anything negative to the game either) it stays on the list. Trust me, Emrakul isn't going anywhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 2:08 pm 
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Not to mention the fact that two of your three "answers" she can't be targeted by and the one that can hit her doesn't stop her extra turn trigger (one of the biggest problems with her for sure) which more than likely can be used to cast her again, this time with no one having answers.

Stuff like this is why I love stiffle/trickbind though :D

All in all probably better off banned, especially when we're in a format with metal worker and potential turn 3-4 emrakuls.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 2:12 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
This card was allowed at the same time Channel was still unbanned, if I recall correctly. Because I do recall green decks using Worldly Tutor then Channel then Emrakul REALLY early, and I had to resort to using Diabolic Edict effects just to stay alive in the early game. Emmy was beyond silly. Needing 10+ permanents in play ASAP wasn't conducive to fun gameplay and, well, it was a race to play her as soon as you could.

Good riddance, stay on the banned list where you belong.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 2:36 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You're welcome to house unban her.

Everyone that's played Azusa or Kozi as generals knows how much 15 ISN'T. I don't know how many times I've seen those types of decks hitting that number by turn 3-4. Maybe a turn slower than 10. Maybe.

Annihilator is the most despised ability in all of magic. Even MaRo has stated it was a mistake. Emmy has 150% of the value of other titans AND gets to swing immediately.

Extra turns are another very vocally despised mechanics.

She's uncounterable which forces very specific answers on the stack.

She's immune to colored spells which forces ability based or mass removal answers in play.

Even if someone does have an answer, she's already ruined at least one player's game thanks to the extra turn allowing for anywhere from 6-24 annihilator triggers (Strionic Resonator) before another player even gets a chance to respond.

Your best suggestion is Icy Manipulator? Not only is that card complete garbage in 2016, it's entirely ineffective vs any decks that actually intend to abuse Emrakul. Congrats, you slowed it down on extra turn 1 IF they aren't running boots (they are). Now they have to "waste" that extra turn bouncing it and recasting so they can swing with your "answer" already tapped down (which they already intended on doing ad nauseum).


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 5:52 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There are a couple of points which really put the nail in the coffin for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.

First off however, listing cards you think are broken which are not banned and saying they are worse than this is not how you get a card unbanned. Each card is evaluated individually, however since you mentioned them I will address that argument:
Quote:
Meren deck? Jhoira? Arcum Dagsson? Azami? Talrand? Arbiter IV? Zur? AdNaus?


Each of these cards is entirely reasonable. Talrand is incredibly benign, making some birds when you cast a spell, how is that a problem? What you've done is named a collection of generals which often have very broken decks built around them, however this requires a concerted effort and many cards in the deck committed to doing a particular thing. Once you start considering the whole deck you might as well ban every black legendary, because I can build an incredibly broken deck, with consistent T1 or T2 wins, with black mana.

Back to Emmy, the problem with emrakul is that she is very powerful, creates undesirable game states and is colourless. All this together means that she goes in every commander deck, all of them, without question. There is no reason not to run her, and so decks now need to have 98 cards instead of 99.

The combination of the undesirable game states created and the ubiquity of her play combine to be worthy of a banning.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2015-Oct-26 10:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'll further defend my view based on Uktabi_Kong's comment because I found it well thought out and written, so:

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
1. The "silent majority" argument isn't valid because there is no way to measure to what extent it is true.

I think it's fair to say that it is true to some extent and that this matters in some way. While not the most compelling argument, the point should be made.

2. Primeval Titan, Sundering Titan, Sylvan Primordial, Griselbrand, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Protean Hulk, Panoptic Mirror, and Coalition Victory are all examples of heavy Timmy cards. So are other cards that aren't banned but heavily despised like Iona or any of the Praetors.

Those are all very different cards. I see Emrakul on a level slightly below Primeval Titan and Sylvan Primordial because those repeatedly give you massive advantage by giving you tons of mana and attacking you opponents' board with you choosing the targets while being easy to use repeatedly. I think that's stronger than a 15 mana wincondition.
Hulk on the other hand
just wins on the spot for 7 mana, Coalition Victory just wins for 8 mana and Griselbrand as well as Bargain come very close to that. You need Trickbind, Time Stop or draw punishing for them, those are much more narrow answers that wraths or edicts.

I think Panoptic Mirror is powerful but could be handled. If it's in your meta, run the answers. There are plenty good answers for it, even sorcery speed will do, and it's an easy 2-for-1 with an instant, exiling a powerful card they now do not have.


3. Hermit Druid is a Spike card that ends the game instantly when used and is only even useful in a deck dedicated to breaking it. Jhoira is a slow Timmy card that is easy to play around and honestly isn't even that powerful competitively. Emrakul is a card that centers the game around it virtually every time it sees play, regardless of what deck it's in or what the board state is. It also doesn't help its case that it is legal in literally every deck.

I've played Hermit for quite a while(my intention was to show our most notorious combo player what it was like to play against him) and tapping Druid only ended the game in a little more than half the games. The other half they would use their disruption after the deck was in the yard and tried to handle it from that point because it is so super consistent that killing the druid only gives you 1-2 turns, but making me play from a Memory's Journey+Pull from Eternity loop cut my options to overwhelm them severely.
You're also saying that Jhoira isn't very powerful competitively. Neither is Emrakul. If you want to go competitive, Emrakul will not be part of your deck, ever.
As for the centering the game around it, I stant by my point that the other titans do so as well. There are many "answer or die" threats in the game, this is EDH after all, and many are stronger.

4. "Ban all of them or don't make that point" is not a legitimate argument; if the RC banned all annoying or unfun cards the list would be 500 cards long and the format would probably die. The RC's goal is not genocide of all annoying cards, but merely sniping the very worst offenders. And none of the cards you listed have the same ubiquity as Emrakul, nor are any of them anything but fine unless specifically built in an annoying fashion.

I'm making a case for Emrakul not being one of the very worst offenders here and I don't really see how a $25-$30 card that is mostly traded away to modern players can be called ubiquitous. I haven't seen an actual copy in years and I live in a city with a huge community(advanced plus) with all sorts of players. I know that's just me, but people don't run Survival of the Fittest in every green deck because it is in that price range, I doubt you'd see Emmy popping up in every other deck, idly sitting in hands as the hardest to cast wincon of all times. That's just not $30 worth of fun for most players.

5. You talk about how "few ways to cheat it out" there are, then offer Bribery and like cards as answers. What is the logical difference between cheating out your own and Briberying your opponent's?

Bribery discourages players to run Blightsteel Collosus type creatures. Would you run Erebos in your Oloro deck? With Bribery in your meta, you only do if you really, really want to.

6. "Answers exist" is not an argument. Every single card that's ever been printed has answers.

It so intuitively is. A lot of things are only legal in Legacy because one single answer exists: Force of Will.
If "answers exist" wasn't an argument, Phage would have to be banned. The question is "what's the cost of running those answers". If you can reasonably ask people to run the answers then it is their absolute responsibility to do that. Players often prefer to sulk in their helplessness, creating growing disdain for whatever they lose to, instead of doing something about it with their grey matter. Answering a great threat with just the right answer is one of the most satisfying things in Magic, I find more joy in it than in any attack I could ever declare or any synergy I could create.


7. If "not using your removal on a powerful card like Kresh because of the mere threat of Emrakul" is an actual strategic decision, that is a sign that Emrakul is negatively warping the format.

When I come to my playgroup, I know at some point someone will cast a Mindslaver. I can be 100% sure of that. So I run Gilded Light, I won't cycle it even if I want a card to go on and I probably won't use it on a Cruel Ultimatum because I can handle a Cruel Ultimatum but not a Mindslaver. Exsanguinate is a similar case.
The point here is that I'm not using the only spell that can deal with their 90% wincon when I can use another spell on their 50% wincon. I don't think that has anything to do with format warping.


8. Cheating it out and/or ramping to 15 mana are not as difficult as you're making it sound. Any deck with green in it or monoblack can EASILY hit that number (oftentimes off a single mana source).

If you don't get a good shot at winning for 15 mana then my perception of the format is very inaccurate. I am sure that Diabolic Revelation wins more games than Emrakul does for less mana, so does Tooth and Nail(we were talking black and green, hell, what about Enter the Infinite? And Mindslaver for any deck.).

9. It doesn't matter if it is cheated out early; it has a pretty nasty effect pretty much regardless of when it hits play.

Nasty, I know.

10. All of your arguments steer toward "oh, Emrakul isn't THAT bad", which would be great if we were discussing whether or not to ban it. But the actual discussion going on is "it's banned, should it stay." Now, the only way it is coming off is if you actually propose a compelling argument for how it makes the format better.


But how exactly did Kokusho and Metalworker make the format better? Those were the kind of "let's see what happens, the world probably won't end" types of unbannings that I am asking for.
I mean if that's the standard, ok, but I prefer not to take things away from people like I own the world unless I absolutely have to. Seeing that Kokusho and Metalworker did not necessarily make the format better(how many cards can claim that for themselves anyway?) but did not destroy it either, I think it's fair to give this one a chance, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-17 11:19 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Honestly, this sounds as if you didn't play during the time she was legal. It was nightmarish. You keep touting these examples of cards that are "worse," but they aren't in practice. The argument "it's been years, so she can't be broken anymore" isn't valid either. The cards that made Emrakul format warping are still around.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 12:16 am 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
A lot of discussions about unbanning a card seem to come from very competitive meta's. Just the other day, I read a post somewhere with complaints that stax and prison don't get enough love in commander. Well guess what, commander isn't designed to be hyper competitive, it's designed to create fun and interesting games.

Since there are players out there that find it fun to go all out with high end cutthroat decks, there's a built-in clause in the commander rules that lets you do whatever the hell you want, it's called house ruling.

You want to play a creature with annihilator six, built in protection, built in extra turn on cast and morbidly obese stats? By all means, go right ahead! Just check with your play group if they mind, if they don't you can go hog wild with Emmy. If they do object, you have found a group to explain to you in detail why they don't like playing (with or against) Emrakul.

Looks like a win-win for you, Mush :)

As for Kokusho and the worker, I'm not sure why Metalworker got unbanned (did it? must have missed that). Kokusho used to be banned as commander, and got rehabilitated when the banned-as-commander list was removed. Obnoxious as it can be, it's not that offensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 12:41 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Here's my experiences from playing with Emrakul when she was legal.

It sucked. The whole match became "Who can stick Emrakul -- that person wins." Answers exist? Yup, that's why the game was to "stick" Emrakul .. we would kill it, but often it would come back, or someone else would have it -- and the person to keep it on the table won.

Deckbuilding decisions were altered simply because of that one card - both from trying to change to answers that can kill it, as well as trying to take advantage of your opponent's running it. Also, IIRC, back then playing a clone was a kill spell for Legendary creatures -- so Clone effects would make your opponent's Emrakul shuffle back into their deck.

Emrakul did, routinely, come out before the typical board wipes were online. A deck that dedicated to ramp (usually Green) would get Emrakul out before someone could muster 6 for an Exile board wipe ('cause just destroying it would just postpone it.)

We all knew she sucked the fun out of the games, yet everyone played it because she was just too powerful not to. Once the official ban list updated and she was banned, everyone took it out, and everyone agreed that the games were better without her.

With all that said -- it's clear you haven't played in a Commander format where she is legal. Your assessment of Emrakul compared to other cards is flawed (likely just not from having the experience.)

From a brief reading of your replies -- it seems the environment you play in is rather spikey in nature. That's cool. But don't disillusion yourself into thinking that you are representative of the Commander meta as a whole. Which is something I think you are doing, as you are drawing on your own metagame experiences as if they were common.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 4:12 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Short answer: Games with Emrakul in them were miserable.

Slightly longer answer: No, really, games with Emrakul in them were miserable.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 4:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
Short answer: Games with Emrakul in them were miserable.

Slightly longer answer: No, really, games with Emrakul in them were miserable.


Now I have to think Sheldon is bad at the game because "that person doesn't know how to deal with this thing because they are not good at the game".

I guess to be fair, they do say that the higher your judge level the worse your in game skills become and Sheldon has a judge level all to himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 5:11 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
mush wrote:
Bribery discourages players to run Blightsteel Collosus type creatures. Would you run Erebos in your Oloro deck? With Bribery in your meta, you only do if you really, really want to.

What you're missing here is that Emrakul could be run in any deck. As long as at least one player at the table has it, the first player to cast Bribery will get her. Even if she only sticks for one turn, Annihilator 6 meant that one person's game was typically ruined.

I also think you're missing a critical piece of the ban list philosophy. Cards aren't banned for being broken; they are banned for accidentally ruining games or warping the metagame. Hermit Druid is a good example of a card that is broken, but doesn't ruin games. It is either used fairly (as a source of basic lands/card advantage) or as a combo element that the player intended to use. Prophet of Kruphix is the opposite; it isn't especially broken, but effing godawful to play against even if the person running it just jammed it in because it is good.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-18 5:52 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Sheldon has a judge level all to himself.
No, he doesn't.

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