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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 5:29 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Marit Lage wrote:
when I get home from the field if you like.


That'd be Bayou, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 6:46 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Shabbaman wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
when I get home from the field if you like.


That'd be Bayou, right?
This is hilarious and appropiate! I was surveying a section of wetlands for Orange County today!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 7:07 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
mush wrote:
Thank you, but I know how to play... No help needed here. That kind of crap only happens when the GY hate got used or handled already(because you need to use it against that kind of deck and in the meta in general). I mostly switched to instant speed stuff from the hand because the Tormod's Crypts you listed just get disenchanted and it's never really about the inbuilt cycling they have, that's just the icing. Coming unexpectedly from the hand is much more valuable and it only dies to hand attack.

If you like, I can give you a list of good answers when I'm done with work today ;)

It's no remark against you, by the by, but I've got to say that if someone at the table wasted a Disenchant on a Tormod's Crypt, I'd probably have to slap the bejesus out of them. That or just give them vehement death stares for the rest of the night after something like Beastmaster Ascension or Cathars' Crusade hits the field.

Honestly, constant hate is typically better than 1-shot hate as most everyone at the table will have more GY hate than the GY players have answers for them, and they are going to be the only ones that try to blow up those Relics of Prog anyway. Your typical reanimator deck is going to be able to blow up a Leyline of the Void, sure, but its going to have a hard time fighting against a Leyline, two Rest in Peaces, two or more Relic of Progenitus, and some dude who keeps Life from the Loaming his Bojuka Bog.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 9:35 am 

Joined: 2015-Oct-26 10:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
Marit Lage wrote:
Why have cheap, almost free graveyard hate sitting on the battlefield to be destroyed? If you know how to play so well, then why are you listing such amateur plays? Leaving our artifacts like that is just asking for spot removal


Are you the kind of person that's looking for beef on the internet? Seriously, here, in this forum? Stay polite when you talk to me or leave it, I don't need that crap.
As for the "why": things like "I play Boonweaver, you lose", "I play Reveillark, you lose", "Morality Shift, you lose", "Living Death, sac my Dual Caster, you lose", "Yawgmoth's Will, you lose", "EOT Intuition, you lose", "Mizzix's Mastery, you lose", "Scrap Mastery, you lose" and "Praetor's Counsel. I'll probably win" are the reasons I want a Crypt to be active. I don't mind if someone gets a Solemn or Kokusho every turn, whatever, I got stuff going on myself. It's the game ending things from the yard that you don't see coming that I'm worried about(because they are holding it in their hand so it won't get handled before they can actually use it. See, my opponents are smart like you :P )

Epsilon wrote:
40-60 minutes wasted? For ONE Yosei? Is your entire table taking 20 minute turns? Find a new group at that point. Yosei "wastes" 10 minutes max unless someone is using that turn to combo off. Emrakul wastes one player before getting removed, that one player is out more time than Yosei.

Any meta that thinks Yosei locks are acceptable or even consider playing Imperial Seal is competitive enough that stax isn't considered "wasted time". Make up your mind. Are you in a high powered meta that looks down on people that can't handle Emrakul like your OP states or are you just a casual complaining about stax "wasting your time"?


Na, I said 2x Yosei was 40 minutes, although it can be way more(I forgot that Yosei on my turn means two turns around the table without me doing stuff so its kind of 40 min for one Yosei, yea. Lets say 30). We have a guy in our group who loves to build every deck like it was storm and playing against his RG Omnath is more tedious than watching Eggs going off. Before that it was Chainer, before that it was Elfball, before that it was Azami. It's sad that we can't have all those hours back, but we're adapting, Silence goes in every white deck.
I should mention that one time he mindslavered me and I very unemotionally told him "you got 20 minutes". I went out to get some refreshments, had a smoke, some chatting with the other players, reminding him of the countdown two or three times. After 20 minutes he was still on it. I told him to get the f**k of my seat and that he should be ashamed.
At least once a month, while he's taking some "me-time", we openly discuss how we're gonna deal with it when we finally snap and lynch him, how to dispose of the body etc. He's friends with all the other players for more than 10 years so it's not completely out of line, they're just like that(FYI there's no definite plan yet).
The reason why I'm offended by Yosei is that he was used like that at a time when we were playing more casual decks. The level of "spikeness" is not fixed, everyone needs a break now and then and I'm happy that we've tuned it down a great deal.
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
It's no remark against you, by the by, but I've got to say that if someone at the table wasted a Disenchant on a Tormod's Crypt, I'd probably have to slap the bejesus out of them. That or just give them vehement death stares for the rest of the night after something like Beastmaster Ascension or Cathars' Crusade hits the field.

Honestly, constant hate is typically better than 1-shot hate as most everyone at the table will have more GY hate than the GY players have answers for them, and they are going to be the only ones that try to blow up those Relics of Prog anyway. Your typical reanimator deck is going to be able to blow up a Leyline of the Void, sure, but its going to have a hard time fighting against a Leyline, two Rest in Peaces, two or more Relic of Progenitus, and some dude who keeps Life from the Loaming his Bojuka Bog.

As for the first part, it really depends. When my GY based deck isn't working I can't do anything about that Beastmaster Ascension either. Well, I can, but I'm gonna lose anyway because my deck isn't working. When I put Disenchants in my GY based deck that's a solution for the GY hate, but other things are in there to deal with the other artifacts and enchantments as well, like more disenchants(I run 10 +-2 in my Gitrog so I can instantly kill the thing and continue playing, including Beast Within, Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay).
For the second part, if that's what an average game looks like in the given meta I wouldn't play GY based decks or even cards anymore, I'm not a masochist^^ We actually have that situation for some time now because I have to play Loam in literally every deck but one... What happened then was that one guy built a mill deck to take advantage of all the GY hate, exiling most and eventually all of the other's decks and me putting Oblivion Sower in half my decks.
Maybe they will cut more GY hate and these things get playable again after a couple weeks. That's part of the constant change that constitutes a healthy, living meta.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 10:22 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Marit Lage wrote:
This is hilarious and appropiate! I was surveying a section of wetlands for Orange County today!

Are you a land surveyor? Me too! What state?

Mush, the bottom line is that Emrakul is a format-warping clusterfuck. Let me tell you how things went in my meta while it was legal;

We'd all sit down to play, and everyone would be playing blue. Because Bribery is a blue card. And the format was so warped around Emrakul that it was assumed that every deck had Emrakul, therefore you wanted to tutor it out of your opponent's deck as well as your own. The game would start, and Emrakul would be on the table by turn 4 at the latest. Boardwipes would happen, and then someone else would go for an emmy... and more boardwipes... and more emmy... and eventually someone would stick one and keep it around and win the game, probably with extra turn combos to ensure no further disruption.

It's not just that Emrakul is powerful, it's that it's socially obnoxious and becomes ubiquitous, which makes it one of the most format-warping cards ever printed. It should never ever ever ever ever be legal in EDH ever again.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 11:39 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
This is hilarious and appropiate! I was surveying a section of wetlands for Orange County today!

Are you a land surveyor? Me too! What state?

I'm a surveyor working for Orange County in Florida. This entertains me far more than it should.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 10:27 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
As a casual EDH player with a meta dependant on how my kitchen table feels I will chime in and say I like Emmy, I play modern tron for Christ sake. But she is only 'fair' as we don't play cheat into play effects. So it would be turn 12-15 earliest, at which point the game is already due to end. I could put it into my elves, but infinite mana is better spent on something else. I do have a colourless deck but emmy would break it in half as it quite often gets to 10-20 mana by turn 6-7. Agreed with all others here, house rule it as it's one of those cards that's staying on the banned list forever

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-19 10:44 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Yeah, Emrakul wouldn't have been a problem at all if people were hardcasting it turn 15. The simple truth is that's not what happened. It was being cheated into play as early as turn 2 in extreme cases, and that's why it's a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-20 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mush wrote:
but people who read about other people being upset usually do not articulate their opposing view on the matter, they just think to themselves "that person doesn't know how to deal with this thing because they are not good at the game" which is usually true.
Stopped reading here for the most part. If you want to have a real discussion, cool. Dont be a jack-hole from the word go and expect anything useful.
Quote:
Stay polite when you talk to me or leave it, I don't need that crap.
You cannot be serious...

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-20 4:32 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mush wrote:
Long story about annoying guy using slaver

The reason why I'm offended by Yosei is that he was used like that at a time when we were playing more casual decks. The level of "spikeness" is not fixed, everyone needs a break now and then and I'm happy that we've tuned it down a great deal.


This is a common problem for people new to the forums, something it's takes us all a while to learn: When discussing rules, Your meta doesn't matter.

This is harsh I know, and whilst our experiences help shape our understandings of the game, and our understanding leads up to form our opinions, no amount of games that happen in our individual playgroups make even the slightest ripple on the EDH sea.

In order to talk about things on a format level, we have to step out of our world and look at the aggregate. The philosophy document is by far more important when thinking about what cards should be legal than the individual experiences of thousands.

I am not saying that our experiences have value here what so ever. What they do is give us our feeling about an issue, but we cannot confuse those feeling with format facts. Your meta feeling gives you the title for your thread, but the facts come from the documents and the posts of those that build the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-20 10:30 pm 

Joined: 2015-Oct-26 10:25 pm
Age: Wyvern
@specter404
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't making an argument for or against something at that point, it's not a rules discussion anymore to me, I got my answer in regard to this. Just thought to myself "why not share that with other people?" since I find it kind of amusing in it's own way. I was never suggesting banning Yosei or Mindslaver or anything, there's no card in the format right now that I'd want to see banned.

@MRHblue
I'm sorry to have offended your good taste(and feel free to stop reading right here again). If it's not too much to ask, please follow me around this and other forums and teach me how to be a better person and please, please do not contribute anything useful.
In fact, since you seem to have nothing productive to fill you time with at the moment, please make this thread about me being a jack-hole entirely because I'm out of here.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-20 11:09 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Of all the flavors you could have chosen...


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-21 5:21 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Realistically speaking, We are getting a new emmy whom is fairly better and more efficient considering one can easily get her out for 8 Cmc if one has all five card types in their graveyard, not to mention combined with Eldrazi Temple and Eye of Ugin, knocking her down to a 4 cmc, which can be easily accomplished in getting her out as apposed to the Aeons Torn Version which considering Shrine of the Forsaken gods, temple of the false god, eldrazi temple, and eye of ugin, and if lucky sol ring, knocking her down to 5 cmc that takes a little bit more preparation than the Promised End. I say wait till eldritch moon comes out and you will have the emrakul of your dreams because the lands I mentioned for Aeons torn can easily crank out Emrakul the promised end quicker and faster. Hell if you have a scorched ruins or urza's lands, she is yours to crank out.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-21 5:49 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Emrakul isn't good because of hard casting her... There's also a lot more than five card types.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Emrakul still banned? - A pleading
AgePosted: 2016-Jul-21 7:20 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Epsilon wrote:
Emrakul isn't good because of hard casting her... There's also a lot more than five card types.


I was comparing old emmy vs new emmy, and sure there is more than five but I am referring to five main card types, sure if you want to fish up all those extra types and do the research, be my guest but my method is less aggrevating.

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