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 Post subject: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-13 10:39 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-13 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
First off if 2 creatures enter the battlefield at the same time can they see each other, like if one said you get a card when you play a another non-token creature, and they are both non token creatures would you get to draw a card (this see each other would apply to other things)

are loyalty counters actually counters, can they be moved from one permanent or plansewalker to another, does proliferate increase loyalty counters, would removing all counters and exiling all tokens kill a planes-walker?

can you copy a planeswalker ability with rings of brightherh, would you just get to copy the ability or would you get a extra loyalty counter


ancestral vision, can it have flashback if a card gives all cards in your graveyard flashback equal to it's converted mana cost... it doesn't seem to have a cmc...

can Melek, izzet cast ancestral vision from the top of your library? I think he could because if you have the option to cast it you can pay U instead of casting it... maybe not though>>>>

what happens when you copy time warp, do you get 2 turns or just 1, and why, any other issues with other take extra turn cards like it

if sorcery and instants cost 2 less to cast does that pay for 2 worth of X in a card like XU, draw X cards

when you copy a spell that has escalate, do you need to escilate the copy as well paying whatever the escalate cost is, or do you copy it escallation and all

same question for kicker

also can a kicker on a sorcery be reduced by 2 as well as by 2 to cast it in the first place??


thx


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-13 1:37 pm 

Joined: 2014-May-23 10:08 am
Age: Wyvern
mishkins11 wrote:
First off if 2 creatures enter the battlefield at the same time can they see each other, like if one said you get a card when you play a another non-token creature, and they are both non token creatures would you get to draw a card (this see each other would apply to other things)


Yes. Those two creatures see each other and, in your example, you would draw a card.

mishkins11 wrote:
are loyalty counters actually counters, can they be moved from one permanent or plansewalker to another, does proliferate increase loyalty counters, would removing all counters and exiling all tokens kill a planes-walker?


Yes. Loyalty counters are counters and can be proliferated and removed, which would kill a planeswalker.

mishkins11 wrote:
can you copy a planeswalker ability with rings of brightherh, would you just get to copy the ability or would you get a extra loyalty counter


Yes. You can copy a planeswalker's activated abilities. You do not get extra loyalty counters though. Gaining or losing loyalty counters is a cost you pay to activate the ability and costs are not copied.

mishkins11 wrote:
ancestral vision, can it have flashback if a card gives all cards in your graveyard flashback equal to it's converted mana cost... it doesn't seem to have a cmc...


No. Giving flashback to ancestral vision doesn't allow you to cast it because it has no cost to cast, which is different than having a cost of zero. Flashback doesn't allow you to suspend a card from the graveyard.

mishkins11 wrote:
can Melek, izzet cast ancestral vision from the top of your library? I think he could because if you have the option to cast it you can pay U instead of casting it... maybe not though>>>>


No. You cannot cast ancestral vision from your library with Melek for the same reasons you can't cast it with flashback.

mishkins11 wrote:
what happens when you copy time warp, do you get 2 turns or just 1, and why, any other issues with other take extra turn cards like it


When you copy time warp, the copy resolves first, granting an extra turn. Then time warp resolves, granting an extra turn. Net profit: two extra turns.

mishkins11 wrote:
if sorcery and instants cost 2 less to cast does that pay for 2 worth of X in a card like XU, draw X cards


Yes, if you have an ability that reduces the generic cost of a spell with an X in it's cost by 2, you effectively get 2 free mana into the X cost.

mishkins11 wrote:
when you copy a spell that has escalate, do you need to escilate the copy as well paying whatever the escalate cost is, or do you copy it escallation and all


When you copy a spell, you copy all aspects of the spell, including kicker, multikicker, escalate, etc.

mishkins11 wrote:
same question for kicker


Same answer as Escalate.

mishkins11 wrote:
also can a kicker on a sorcery be reduced by 2 as well as by 2 to cast it in the first place??


Yes. If you have an effect that reduces the cost of kicking your spells by 2 and an effect that reduces the cost of your spells by 2 they will both apply. I'm not aware that there is a card that can reduce kicker costs so I doubt this scenario will ever actually happen.

It's possible you meant to ask "If an effect reduces the cost of my spell by 2 does it also reduce my kicker cost by 2 (for a net benefit of 4 mana)?" In that case, no. Casting cost and kicker cost are mutually exclusive in those regards.

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-13 6:01 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
One day week has it pretty well covered, just two technicalities with wording:

The example you used in the first question uses the wording "when you play a non-token creature", play is equivalent to cast WRT spells, so for your example to work it would say "when a nontoken creature enters the battlefield."

For the escalate/kicker copied question. When you copy a spell on the stack, you get whatever modes and bonuses the spell already has, if you copied it from elsewhere, perhaps by isochron scepter or diluvian primordial, you can choose to pay the additional costs like kicker or escalate, but they don't come free.

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 Post subject: more questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 12:17 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-13 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
trying to build a UBG deck and even trying to make a multiplayer and 1vs1 version at the same time isn't cutting down the cards below 75 (ie build 1vs1 deck first, if I can do that then I'll decide remove these x cards add in these x cards now it's multiplayer version)


anyways I got the infinite mana combo in there because I have a few spells that would kill with enough mana, questions about the technicalities

River Kelpie has persist, mikaeus, the unhallowed gives him undying, when he is sacrificed to ashnod's alter do I draw a card gain 2 colorless mana and return him to play with no counters???

Or does something there not work

also what if I used creature blah : a basic 2/2 creature for B mana, and then used cauldron of souls to give him persist until end of turn. Can I sac him over and over for colorless mana and cards assuming kelpie is in play??

I know throwing in other persist creatures and the alter that gives colored mana would increase the ods but don't have the room, it's kinda like a lot of gimmicks and 8 tutors so I can do whatever one I feel like

Thinking about maybe removing it from the deck altogether it has some synergy with other things in the deck like sacrificing for other reasons and having them come back but it would remove 4 cards from that 70 some


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 12:25 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
A couple of nitty gritty things, for the original questions:

Time Warp question:
Note that the extra turns are inserted in the turn order as the "next turn" as they are created, which ends up with them being taken in the opposite order they are created. So imagine you cast Time Warp A, your opponent casts Twin Cast to get a copy (Time Warp B). Their copy resolves first so it gets put into the turn order (your current turn>Extra Turn B>opponent's normal turn). Then yours resolves (your current turn>Extra Turn A>Extra Turn B>opponent's normal turn).

Quote:
if sorcery and instants cost 2 less to cast does that pay for 2 worth of X in a card like XU, draw X cards
This was answered, but note that you don't have to go for the full value of X.

Say you had an effect reducing the cost of instants/sorceries by 2. Your opponent casts Swords to Plowshares and you want to counter it with Spell Blast. You declare X=1, costs are calculated...actually, I'm just going to break out the steps to casting a spell.

Move the card you're casting to the stack.
Propose the spell (this is where you say what modes you want, whether you will kick it (or escalate it, entwine it, etc), value of X, targets, etc.)
Check that the spell can legally be cast (for example, you can't bestow a Chromanticore on on opponent's turn if you have a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, because it will not be a creature for this check)
Apply any cost increasing effects (Feroz's Ban, etc.)
Apply any cost reductions (Arcane Melee, etc.)
Apply any cost setting effects (Trinisphere)
This gives you the final cost. Now you have an opportunity to activate mana abilities.
Pay all of your costs in any order.


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 Post subject: Re: more questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 12:34 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
mishkins11 wrote:
River Kelpie has persist, mikaeus, the unhallowed gives him undying, when he is sacrificed to ashnod's alter do I draw a card gain 2 colorless mana and return him to play with no counters???
They are two separate triggers, so only one will apply each time. If it has no counters, you will choose which one resolves first. If it has a -1/-1 counter, it will come back with Undying (and a +1/+1 counter). If it has a +1/+1 counter, it will come back with Persist (and a -1/-1 counter). So the ashnod's altar combo works, because it will just alternate which way it comes back.

Quote:
also what if I used creature blah : a basic 2/2 creature for B mana, and then used cauldron of souls to give him persist until end of turn. Can I sac him over and over for colorless mana and cards assuming kelpie is in play??

Every time a card changes zones, it is a new object. Once that 2/2 comes back from the Persist trigger, it is considered to be a new creature, so it won't have Persist any more.


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 Post subject: Re: more questions
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 7:55 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mishkins11 wrote:
River Kelpie has persist, mikaeus, the unhallowed gives him undying, when he is sacrificed to ashnod's alter do I draw a card gain 2 colorless mana and return him to play with no counters???


Persist and undying would both trigger when the creature goes to the graveyard. You stack them as you like, and then the one on the top of the stack resolves.

Lets says you stack persist then undying on top, the creature returns with a +1/+1 counter and then persist does nothing. The next time you sac the kelpie, undying wont trigger as the creature had a +1 counter, persist triggers and returns the creature with a -1 counter. Rinse an repeat ad infinatum.

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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 11:55 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-13 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
That is all very helpful, the whole casting a spell thing is complicated and I have a UR costs lest to cast deck.. anyone know of like a youtube video that goes into the full detail and uses examples it's a bit hard to wrap my head around how to use it properly and abuse the commanders ability to the fullest

okay if you have Gift of Immortality on your creature and it gets removed from the game, has it or has it not "died"? I know it never went to the graveyard but it has left play. I suppose sacrifice is leaving play without dying? Or is it? What if you sacrificed the creature

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet just answered one question.... "would die, exile it instead" so exiled creatures don't "die"

Drana's Emissary would trigger sanguine bond only once but it would trigger Exquisite Blood as many times as there are opponents?

now what if you had have sanguine bond and Exquisite Blood in play at the same time and an opponent losses life or you gain life, does it create an infinite loop and fizzle doing nothing?

If so what would be a few good ways to have in a WB deck to stop the loop after the player dies?

If you have an effect where you gain life whever a creature dies on a creature, and all creatures are killed say wrath of god, would you gain life for each creature that dies, and would they be considered separate for karlov of the ghost council


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-04 12:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
mishkins11 wrote:
okay if you have Gift of Immortality on your creature and it gets removed from the game, has it or has it not "died"? I know it never went to the graveyard but it has left play. I suppose sacrifice is leaving play without dying? Or is it? What if you sacrificed the creature

"dies" is short for "goes to the graveyard from the battlefield" and only applies to creatures.

So if the creature is exiled ("remove from the game" effects now exile - meaning it goes to the exile zone) then it never went to the graveyard, so it never 'died'.

Sacrifice does (normally) go to the graveyard, so that would count as the creature dying.

mishkins11 wrote:
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet just answered one question.... "would die, exile it instead" so exiled creatures don't "die"

Right - as 'dies' requires it to go to the graveyard.

mishkins11 wrote:
Drana's Emissary would trigger sanguine bond only once but it would trigger Exquisite Blood as many times as there are opponents?

Correct

mishkins11 wrote:
now what if you had have sanguine bond and Exquisite Blood in play at the same time and an opponent losses life or you gain life, does it create an infinite loop and fizzle doing nothing?

It will create an almost infinite loop. But it will continually drain your opponent until they die. Once that player dies, the cards won't trigger and the loop will stop itself (in the case of multiplayer - in single player you will most likely have won.)

In the case that the player can't lose (such as, they have a Platinum Angel in play), then that loop will be infinite, and will cause a draw unless someone destroys one of the enchantments.


mishkins11 wrote:
If you have an effect where you gain life whever a creature dies on a creature, and all creatures are killed say wrath of god, would you gain life for each creature that dies
Yep
mishkins11 wrote:
... and would they be considered separate for karlov of the ghost council
In your example, you killed all creatures, so Karlov wouldn't get any counters (as he is dead) ... although, yes, it would trigger his ability once for each creature that dies that gained you life (through some other effect.) If Karlov was indestructible, then yes he'd get 2 counters for every creature that died.

Note that if you have Gift of Immortality on Karlov - he would die, and come back into play -- but he'd be considered a "different" Karlov ... so he wouldn't get any counters.


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-05 4:01 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
onedayweek wrote:
No. Giving flashback to ancestral vision doesn't allow you to cast it because it has no cost to cast, which is different than having a cost of zero. Flashback doesn't allow you to suspend a card from the graveyard.

I believe you CAN use things like Isochron Scepter to cast copies "without paying the mana cost", even though there's not a mana cost you would normally pay.

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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-05 11:26 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Carthain wrote:
Note that if you have Gift of Immortality on Karlov - he would die, and come back into play -- but he'd be considered a "different" Karlov ... so he wouldn't get any counters.

You can stack the triggers any way you'd like in that case. Stack it so that the Gift trigger will resolve first, and your "new" Karlov will be there when all of the gain life triggers resolve.


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 4:06 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If you control both triggering effects, yeah that'll work.


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-11 5:42 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-13 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
zameck guildmage <- does additional mean they had to have a counter to get a extra counter from guildmage? like would any creature entering get a counter?

llanowar reborn zameck guildmage hardened scales All in play, activate guildmages's additional counter ability, play a creature and move a +1/+1 counter from llanowar to the creature, how many counters does it get? Does hardend scales add an extra counter to the one from the land and the one from guildmages ability giving him 4 counters?? why or why not


grasp of fate if you remove a commander from the game do you have the option to move it to the command zone or does it always get removed or always go to command zone, if it goes to the command zone and grasp of fate is destroyed does he still return to play>?

lightmine field ensnaring bridge

you attack with 2 creatures each has melee, 2 different opponents, they are 2/2 each and the person controlling lightmine and bridge has 2 cards in hand.

Can they attack? Will lightmine field kill them? again why plz


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-11 5:46 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-13 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
managorger hydra

if I cast a spell and someone counterspells it, how many counters are placed on managorger


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 Post subject: Re: a bunch of rule questions
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-11 6:47 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mishkins11 wrote:
managorger hydra

if I cast a spell and someone counterspells it, how many counters are placed on managorger

2. The trigger doesn't check whether a spell is successfully cast, only if something was cast in the first place.


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