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 Post subject: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 11:52 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Does anybody have experience or advice for starting life totals for archenemy commander? In 60-card you have 40 life for the archenemy and 20 for the pitiful fools other players. I can see arguments for 40, 60, or 80 on this. I'm also thinking that going formulaic might be right, with 20 starting life per opponent.

The comp rules provide no guidance for this and the the colloquial use of archenemy dashed my hopes of trying to use the search function for this question.


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 12:26 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't know an actual rule, so feel to ignore me, but i don't think there are rules for commander+archenemy. It's not a real format, right? Just pasting rules from two formats into one?

In either case, though, seems like houseruling hat works would still make the most sense. Getting in more and more complex format mashups like this means eventually you find cards that are unbalanced. Being that it's a frankenformat i am kind of picturing difficulty in balancing out decks, since it's (probably) not like you all have decks built for this format? So it just seems like life is one way you try to balance it out for however you guys play.


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 1:16 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
I don't know an actual rule, so feel to ignore me, but i don't think there are rules for commander+archenemy. It's not a real format, right? Just pasting rules from two formats into one?
That is correct. There isn't anything in the comp rules that makes them explicitly incompatible, but there isn't any rule for starting life totals if you're mashing them up.


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 2:30 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
If in 60-card archenemy the Archenemy has double the usual life total while facing down three opponents, I'd be tempted to do the same in Commander; so 80 starting life against everyone else's 40, and maaaybe double Commander damage as well

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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-14 8:57 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
so 80 starting life against everyone else's 40, and maaaybe double Commander damage as well
Since commander damage doesn't stack across players, it might not be necessary (unless everyone throws buff spells on one player's commander). In my experience, there's usually not many buff spells floating around in decks for this to be an issue, so unless you're using tuned-to-Archenemy decks commander damage can probably just stay the same. (And as a side note, tuned decks for the Archenemy format typically break the game, anyway.)

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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-15 1:26 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I recall doing Commander + Archenemy a while back -- unfortunately I don't recall our starting life totals for you.

What I do remember is every time I flipped up the "Meet my new friend" promo scheme (I may not have the name of that correct) and I tutored out Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker -- people quit. (or if they didn't, I ended the game shortly afterwards.)


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-15 12:02 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-16 3:48 am
Age: Hatchling
JJackson wrote:
Does anybody have experience or advice for starting life totals for archenemy commander? In 60-card you have 40 life for the archenemy and 20 for the pitiful fools other players. I can see arguments for 40, 60, or 80 on this. I'm also thinking that going formulaic might be right, with 20 starting life per opponent.

The comp rules provide no guidance for this and the the colloquial use of archenemy dashed my hopes of trying to use the search function for this question.

in my tabble we do half of the original life (20HP in EDH) * number of players


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-15 2:27 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
I've done a little tinkering with my various archenemy ideas, but adding in all the commander format stuff was a little too much last time I tried. The archenemy in a normal game starts with 40, which is double the normal, so I would think a commander archenemy would start with 80.

Another thing to consider is that an archenemy commander has a single commander against three other decks, each with not just their own commander, but their own commander deck. Commander games have a lot more removal and big splashy cards that could easily take out a commander. Commander tax, number of cards the archenemy-commander draws, and the scheme deck all seemed like something to consider. I'm sure someone has a story about a game where three people all went after one guy from the start for one reason or another. I'm not sure how one would balance it all out, but I do think one would probably have to build their deck specifically for the role of the archenemy-commander.

My understanding was commander was a multiplayer format, where archenemy was a 1v3 team based format, so putting the two together in a way that's fair for everyone...that might take more then a little bit of extra thinking. I was actually considering building a deck specifically to be an archenemy/commander, but I discovered that preparing a commander deck for every game being a 1v3 gave me a whole different approach to even picking cards to consider putting in the deck.

I know the question was on starting life totals, but I thought my insights might be helpful somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 2:38 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-04 12:43 am
Age: Drake
I'm very interested in comments about this, too.
I hadn't played Archenemy in a while, and never with EDH, I think. We did just that a couple of weeks ago.

First, about the starting life totals, we tried with 3*20 vs 40. It felt too little for the allies, who were promptly dispatched each time. Then we tried 3*30 vs 50, and it was better. Doubling regular EDH life totals might be good but we wanted quicker games.

We didn't consider specific deck construction. I was leaning more towards changing the scheme deck, although I'm still searching for the best way (I own the schemes from buying the 4 preconstructed). Allowing the Archenemy player to build a whole scheme deck beforehand seems too powerful (some schemes are clearly better), but maybe selecting 5 and adding 20 random ones? not sure about the proportions either.

Anyway, more ideas are very welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 2:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Removal isn't so much of a problem for commander archenemy compared to just combo/control. Any constructed format tends to run a lot of removal, commander just runs more board wipes in general which works against the larger team. The archenemy schemes do a lot to help you go 1v3 but 80 or 150 life is irrelevant when a player is just going to T&N out a win condition. Commander decks are already being designed to deal out 120 points of damage instead of 40 so the archenemy life total isn't super relevant compared to the life of the other three.

Honestly, just play it out and see what works best for your group. 40/20, 60/30, 80/40, etc... They all can be good but it's likely to be more meta dependent.


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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 3:24 pm 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
We play this quite a bit, and just give the Archenemy the same +20 starting life, 60. We have never found a need for special decks, and play with a single copy of every scheme as a scheme deck. It works, is fun, but is usually pretty fast comparatively to a free for all. We see the Archenemy win more often than not 1 Vs. 3, but since no one builds decks specifically for it, or chooses their decks specifically to work better together, the balance seems about right. Our group doesn't play real combo decks, though, so that would definitely generate different results.

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 Post subject: Re: Archenemy commander
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-20 8:38 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-14 4:05 am
Age: Wyvern
Hi

Cool idea for a format.

I really like the idea that it would be designed as 1vs3: archnemesis would begin with 80 life and there commander does double damage (taking into consideration 3 players life totals add up to 120 and also an eldrazi commander doing double damage is one hit killing players with commander damage). The true difficulty lies in the mashup of the 3 other commanders not messing each other over with board wipes or global related effects.

cheers


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