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 Post subject: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 6:22 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-16 6:06 am
Age: Hatchling
In the case of Worst Fears I can kinda see the point of why none is willing to make a rule-change, but with the addition of Emrakul, The Promised End I want this discussion reopened. With Sorin and Worst Fears you could always at least counter it. Emrakul has a VERY limited pool of cards that would prevent the round being taken over, due to the cast-trigger, opening for decks that would break the format by perma-exiling commanders. It's more or less repeating earlier pleads that argue that EDH revolves around the commander, and as such it feels like it goes against the intention of the format that such a loophole exists. Especially after the revisited rule that prevents shuffling it in as well. It's obvious that the intent is that you never should be forced to lose your commander permanently.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 9:10 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
So, please correct me if I am wrong, but what I think you're saying is that you're worried an opponent, when taking their stolen turn via Emrakul's cast trigger, will find a way to permanently exile the stolen commander? Say by Swords to Plowsharesing it?

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 9:18 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Fatali wrote:
It's obvious that the intent is that you never should be forced to lose your commander permanently.

Well, yes and no. Here's what Sheldon said when the "anti-tuck" rules change went down:
Sheldon wrote:
If your commander would go into the library or your hand, you may choose to put it into the command zone. It’s as simple as that. Just like with the graveyard, if you want it to go into the library/hand, you’re more than welcome to let it. Note that this is a replacement effect, but it can apply multiple times to the same event.

There are four major points in how we arrived at this decision. None of them individually was the silver bullet; the combination of factors got us to where we ended up. In no particular order:

1) We want to engender as positive an experience as we can for players. Nothing runs the feel-bads worse than having your commander unavailable to you for the whole game.

2) The presence of tuck encourages players to play more tutors so that in case their commander gets sent to the library, they can get it back—exactly the opposite of what we want (namely, discouraging the over-representation of tutors).

3) While we are keenly aware that tuck is a great weapon against problematic commanders, the tools to do so are available only in blue and white, potentially forcing players into feeling like they need to play those colors in order to survive. We prefer as diverse a field as possible.

4) It clears up some corner case rules awkwardness, mostly dealing with knowing the commander’s locationin the library (since highly unlikely to actually end up there).

When FRF came out, manifest led us to talking about what it meant to be a commander—which is what got us talking about tuck in the first place. After a long discussion, we decided the best course regarding commander-ness was no change. Your commander is always your commander regardless of where it is or its status. That means enough hits from a face-down commander can kill you.
(emphasis mine)

So it's not like the ability for a card to take out an opponent's Commander for the whole game is at all enough of a reason to ban that card, but if you have opponents who are using Emrakul to do this to each other and/or to you, maybe let them know that it's not the kind of play you enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 10:21 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
While it is true that it is against the spirit of the format to be able to "perma-exile" an opponent's commander, it does take a considerable amount of effort to make happen. Rarely is a game of EDH 1v1 where it would be that much clearer of a choice of who to choose for that ability. Currently we have 4 cards that can enable such a scenario (that I'm aware of)

Sorin Markov (ultimate)
Worst Fears
Mindslaver
Emrakul, the Promised End

Many of these options require a considerable amount of mana or time to prepare, and they also require an additional card of an undetermined amount of mana to pair together. Often times a person could more easily "combo off" rather than use these pieces to get rid of someone's commander, so it's not something that will happen often. And while it's true that there are very few cards in the game that will allow you to pull a card you own from exile (all the new eldrazi only target opponent's cards in exile), there are few instances where those cards become necessary.

Like Intreped said, make sure that you voice your distaste for that particular strategy in your play group to discourage it. The RC is not going to ban 4 cards that allow you to control a person's turn on the rare scenario where it can cause a commander to be exiled for the game. There are many other cards that are questionable under a variety of circumstances, but because they're not warping, they're fine.

TL;DR - Sorin 1.0 is only used for his "someone goes to 10 life," all other options cost a lot to play and a unique set up is needed to perma-exile a commander. No ban is going to happen for any of the above mentioned cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 12:44 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Currently we have 4 cards that can enable such a scenario (that I'm aware of)
Word of Command can manage it, too, under narrow circumstances.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 12:45 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Seems like a chore to control someone else's turn and permanently exile their commander. You have to have specific cards or an opponent's help, and it seems like very little gain outside of certain specific commanders (medium powered ones like Omnath or Titania or voltron ones, but not tier decks with OP commanders like Prossh, Zur, Arcum, et al; which are going to win before you cast or would lose anyway).

If anyone's commander is actually enough of a problem you want to do this, it seems like you're playing with the wrong kind of people or that this semi-convoluted technique isn't going to be common or effective enough.

All my commanders are cool to have in play but i don't think any lose if i can't cast them... Probably Derevi stax/stasis but idk. (it's also the kind of deck where i've already lost if anyone can even cast Emrakul in the game, like the above mentioned OP commanders).

Overall i just feel like it's not only a griefy strategy, but a lot of work and requires some stars to align, and then still doesn't necessarily have a good-great payoff.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 1:12 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sovarius wrote:
Probably Derevi stax/stasis but idk. (it's also the kind of deck where i've already lost if anyone can even cast Emrakul in the game, like the above mentioned OP commanders).

If anybody can permanently deal with a Derevi they should get a medal.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 2:52 pm 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
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Location: The Blind Eternities
Nah the worst thing you can do to a commander like say derevi or any of the major heavies that lack a mana ability is use Pacifism or Arrest, and arguably the best color combo to do this Azorius though if you wanted to be a dick, you could play zur the enchanter as a commander to fully take advantage of his ability to slam enchantments and aura down.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 3:28 pm 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
Most people I know already play with a simple fix for this. I honestly thought it was the way the rule was worded.

The Commanders Owner, not controller, makes the zone replacement effect decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 4:49 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The first time i played Derevi (i only built it last week and played two tournament games with it), she was imprisoned in the moon the next turn and unfortunately stayed that way the rest of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-16 11:08 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
The first time i played Derevi (i only built it last week and played two tournament games with it), she was imprisoned in the moon the next turn and unfortunately stayed that way the rest of the game.

Well that seems fine since there are numerous ways that could have been avoided from land destruction to effects that sacrifice a permanent to bounce spells, etc. If it stayed on the table for the whole game like that, that's just either bad luck (because you never drew your cards that could deal with it and no one played there's) or it was bad preparation. It sounds like Song of the Dryads would have also done you in.

As for the topic at hand, I think a simple rule that says that Commander's owner, regardless of who control's their turn, is the one that decides where a Commander is going to go, just like how that player retains the ability to concede whenever they want to.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-17 2:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Buthrakaur wrote:
Most people I know already play with a simple fix for this. I honestly thought it was the way the rule was worded.

The Commanders Owner, not controller, makes the zone replacement effect decisions.
This isn't the issue. The Commander's Owner is under the control of another player. That other player gets to tell the owner what to choose.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-17 5:09 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
The Commanders Owner, not controller, makes the zone replacement effect decisions.
This isn't the issue. The Commander's Owner is under the control of another player. That other player gets to tell the owner what to choose.[/quote]
And a rule could be made to say that the other player isn't allowed to make that choice, just like that player is not allowed to concede.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-17 7:17 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm not saying it's impossible to close the loophole. I'm saying that the core issue was misunderstood if owner/controller was thought to be the problem. Owner does already make the decision, but that doesn't actually matter.

903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.

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 Post subject: Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-17 7:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cheethorne wrote:
Well that seems fine since there are numerous ways that could have been avoided from land destruction to effects that sacrifice a permanent to bounce spells, etc. If it stayed on the table for the whole game like that, that's just either bad luck (because you never drew your cards that could deal with it and no one played there's) or it was bad preparation. It sounds like Song of the Dryads would have also done you in.

Song too, yeah. I do play 4 wasteland variants and 4 enchantment removals and 4 strong creature tutors that put guys into play. But i locked the game down with mana dorks, Winter Orb, Natural Affinity and Copperhorn Scout and had a pretty win after later losing some board state.


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