MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander
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Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18310
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Author:  Fatali [ 2016-Aug-17 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

Wow, I appreciate all the feedback. I want to clarify that I brought up this issue again specifically because of Emrakul's ability being cast trigger. I met a Sidisi, Brood Tyrant-deck earlier that got Emrakul off in round 5 or something with the help of some really lucky self-mill and ramp and proceeded to top-deck my Path to Exile and made me exile my own commander, choosing for me that it went into exile. I had Counterspell, but since Emrakul's ability is cast-triggered it really didn't matter much and I was forced to concede. My point is then that when a single card has an ability that is so broken and you have such limited ways to deal with it (I could only think of Stifle, Trickbind, Time Stop, Voidslime, Summary Dismissal, Witchbane Orb and Sundial of the Infinite), it validates at least reconsidering a rule-change that would easily rebalance the card within the format without having to ban it or errata it. And it would plug the last(?) hole in the anti-tuck rule.

Author:  Marit Lage [ 2016-Aug-17 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

You realize that any deck could play those turn control effects turn 4-6, right? Artifact ramp exists and is very strong.

Author:  SadisticMystic [ 2016-Aug-19 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

The entire point of effects like Mindslaver is that you do get to usurp every one of that player's decisions, bar one. The only reason they call out concession as the one thing you don't get to usurp is that otherwise, "controlling an opponent" would, without exception, trivialize into "that player loses".

Sometimes cards end up having the effect of "that player loses" anyway, such as "deal 10 damage to target player" when they only have 9 life, or gaining control of a player who has Wall of Blood. But if an effect can reduce to something else absolutely every time, they might as well print what it reduces to, instead of whatever text they actually plan on putting on the card. They obviously weren't comfortable printing Mindslaver as "4, T: Target player loses the game", so they made sure its text wasn't so universally reducible to that.

Unlike concession, commander zone change is not nearly so universally applicable: the commander either needs to be on the battlefield already or they need to have sufficient resources to cast it on the single turn that you control them, plus someone needs to go on to use a card that will cause it to change zones. There's nothing unusually ubiquitous about this possibility, and no reason to treat it any differently than the rest of the decisions a controlled players has at their disposal--which means that yes, one of the perks of being the Mindslaver is, and is supposed to be, dictating that decision.

Author:  Sovarius [ 2016-Aug-19 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

Fatali wrote:

This doesn't stop Emrakul.

Fatali wrote:
that would easily rebalance the card within the format without having to ban it or errata it. And it would plug the last(?) hole in the anti-tuck rule.

I don't think it needs a ban or is unbalanced. It's been a short while since it's release, give it time. It's only one more control-turn card (these effects already exist and didn't require bans).

I don't know if that's really a hole in the anti-tuck rule... It works as intended. You control their choice in replacement effects. Just like in any other format with any other replacement effects when given a choice between two.

Your situation sounds pretty narrow though. Will people always have some way to permanently remove your commander? Maybe attacking into someone else's blocker but i don't really know that being able to reliably exile or shuffle it in the deck is reliable or frequent. Not even every color has exile and most tuck cards see less play now that you normally can't libe a creature.

Author:  Commando calrissian [ 2016-Aug-20 8:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

Hi

Whenever I discuss Eldrazi legendaries I will use acronyms, I will initially mention the eldrazi in full but with in brackets its acronymized form.

My friend tested out Emrakul, the Promised End(EPE) in our multi player EDH group yesterday; his deck typically is interchangeable with any legendary eldrazi, although normally Kozilek the Great Distortion(KGD) is his commander. The entire game we felt a shadow looming over the tabletop, Lurking Predators brought a Ulamog of the Ceaseless Hunger(UCH) out for free, another opponent played Ulamog of Infinite Gyre(UIG), things were getting crazy eldrazi were abound but in my friends corner? My buddy had a Eldrazi temple, then got a Conduit of ruin, searched his library (he did not have his ideal artifact super hand), he had the mana to cast his commander next turn...was the end nigh?, was EPE coming? Lurking Predators meantime revealed a Duplicant, the Conduit was imprinted; strip mining soon took the Eldrazi temple, just like that my friends ability to cast emrakul next turn was gone. Later on that game he and the other eldrazi player were neutered with a well timed BANE! of Progress(16/16 Bane which had mild indigestion and left the commander players Xenagos commander alone lol).

Part of the problem with colourless commanders is the in-ability to have a diverse pool of cards to properly devise a deck around the few colourless commander choices one has to truly make that leader shine. One can simply MANA RAMP though, extremely quickly. I have seen turn 3 Kozileks, the mana ramp possibilities with artifacts is wicked :shock: BUT one loving creature can have a picnic and quickly even the odds more often then not and that is Ol'BANE! of progress, breaking artifacts on it's knee; even a well cast shatterstorm can devastate so severely that a colourless eldrazi commander deck will not recover. I've also noted that repeated castings of eldrazi commanders is extremely unlikely and if the eldrazi commander does not get commander out early and thwomp for commander damage they will be quickly targeted just because of the simple reason that they got giant eldrazi commander= NAY NAY.

Thus in the end EPE is fine albeit Mindslaver is NOT COOL. EPE can be difficult to get out and if EPE got out early, would Mindslaver be that great to use on someone on turn 3-5? and of course that is with a really good artifact mana ramp starting hand. The usage of Mindslaver on EPE needs perfect timing and its only one player, to me its more scary to deal with a 13/13 trample flyer then a turn of Mindslaver even though the mind enslaved turn will most likely result in taking 13 FLYING commander damage the next turn... KGD or UCH are still better newer choices of the classic UIG or Kozilek Butcher of Truth(KBT) for commanders as I suggested on another forum post about Emrakul the Aeons Torn. It's amusing that commander rules really keep eldrazi commander decks down with colour limitations, ex: can only use wastes as lands, artifacts, Scour from Existence becomes amazing and surprising to players with its instant speed despite it's 7 mana cost!, no devoid spells :facepalm:, if eldrazi didn't have colour issues in commander I would be re-thinking my position on EPE thats for sure.

cheers

Author:  Drrakus [ 2016-Aug-27 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

One question I have is if we're discussing the new Emrakul in general or the new Emrakul as a commander.

As a colorless commander, I can say from my experience with artifacts that the new Emrakul isn't a very good colorless commander. Using him to exile another commander once will probably make the rest of the table very....unfriendly towards the Emrakul deck. Then you have the other two new Eldrazi lords who have a lot more utility then the old ones, but the old ones do have annihilator. Then you have Karn, Silver Golem, but as far as colorless commanders go, that's about it. Personally, I think the other Eldrazi lords are the better commanders, depending on if you want access to the newer utility or the older forced sac effects. I wouldn't say the new or old ones are better then the others, but I will say I prefer the old Kozilek.

As for a 'control another player's turn card' in general, he actually gives that player an extra turn that you don't control, so I could see him being less hated then the others. As for combos, exiling a commander is far from the scariest thing that can happen. The only thing I'll specifically throw out is the Darksteel Forge Nevinyrral's Disk combo. Whenever I've seen it used, it's usually a game ender.

I don't think the new Emrakul is worth an official ban, but I could see people house ruling him out for various reasons, or for no reason at all (Some people do that sort of thing). I would think most people would avoid using the turn control cards, more as the sort of gentleman's agreement in that anyone could go out, buy a Mindslaver, and add it to their deck along with a few tutors (I can name at least two colorless tutors). Personally, my Mindslaver is in a binder along with most of my other anti-fun cards, and I think it's going to stay there for...a long time.

Mostly, the new Emrakul just has one big downside: Whoever you pick for controlling their turn, the new Emrakul gives them an extra one after you do whatever it is you planned on doing with their turn.

Author:  charlequin [ 2016-Aug-28 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Emrakul, the Exiler of commanders.

Drrakus wrote:
As a colorless commander, I can say from my experience with artifacts that the new Emrakul isn't a very good colorless commander. Using him

Her. (Or "it" if you don't want to apply mortal gender to the Eldrazi.)

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