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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-08 10:21 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
So, Selvala's been around a couple of months, what's been your experiences playing with or against her?

I have her at the helm of a tribal Hydra deck, nothing busted (flavor over power kinda deck). People tend to kill her on sight, unless they need a big bad hydra to do some dirty work for them. Basically it's been catching spot removal for me, so my hydra's eat a little less targeted removal.

Nobody's been complaining that Sellie is too much around here, but like I said i've not been trying to push it to the limits.


I've played her some, and she definitely does stupid stuff. I lost once to a well played Deadly Tempest hitting my 32,768/32,768 Hero's Bane, which was hilarious. It should be mentioned that that P/T was achieved over a single turn with Selvala, three untap effects, and a Karametra's Acolyte to give a boost at the beginning. Twice I lost one on one to a well-tuned mono-G Omnath deck. First game our decks were just a turn off of each other - I died to commander damage the turn before my monstrous Hydra Broodmother and her 13 kids would have swung in. Maybe T6-7. The next game I got hit with a T3 Entwined Tooth and Nail for Ulamog twins, which was an interesting, if painful, experience.

I don't think she's bannable, mostly because of the infrastructure it takes to make her really go off. I do suspect my own deck could still be improved somewhat, though I have neither the skill, nor the wish to do so right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 4:50 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
I thought she would grow in popularity when good decks for her were posted online. Local players who constructed her made poor choices when building their lists. Also, it very common for them to make misplays during games. I think there are more important things to focus on than her.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-13 5:46 am 

Joined: 2017-Mar-13 5:26 am
Age: Egg
crimson wrote:
This is why Selvala beats Rof.

Turn 1: Forest, mana dork.
Turn 2: Forest, Selvala
Turn 3: Mana producing land. Natural Order hitting mana dork, Terrastodon
Turn 4: Nature's Chosen onto Selvala. I now have 17 available mana and a swinging Terrastadon.
Played a game recently where I was dominating the board state with only 3 lands in play. I stopped pumping Hero's Bane and was generating 1k mana per untap around turn 6 - maybe 7.

Most decks are just now thinking about doing something beyond a basic setup play.


I can do better, This happened to me today.

T1: forest, dork
T2: forest, selvala
T3: forest, phyrexian dreadnought, etb on the stack, berserk it, activate selvala, 24 mana, let dreadnought die, genesis wave for 22, hit bunch of eldrazi and akroma's memorial or concordant crossroads, KILL

I'm not arguing that one is better than the other, but if one is bannable, both are.
Personally I'd like to see both banned as commanders, not banned as cards in deck.

As it stands, I'm probably going to be banning selvala in my store.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-14 3:14 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
CardboardKing wrote:
crimson wrote:
This is why Selvala beats Rof.

Turn 1: Forest, mana dork.
Turn 2: Forest, Selvala
Turn 3: Mana producing land. Natural Order hitting mana dork, Terrastodon
Turn 4: Nature's Chosen onto Selvala. I now have 17 available mana and a swinging Terrastadon.
Played a game recently where I was dominating the board state with only 3 lands in play. I stopped pumping Hero's Bane and was generating 1k mana per untap around turn 6 - maybe 7.

Most decks are just now thinking about doing something beyond a basic setup play.


I can do better, This happened to me today.

T1: forest, dork
T2: forest, selvala
T3: forest, phyrexian dreadnought, etb on the stack, berserk it, activate selvala, 24 mana, let dreadnought die, genesis wave for 22, hit bunch of eldrazi and akroma's memorial or concordant crossroads, KILL

I'm not arguing that one is better than the other, but if one is bannable, both are.
Personally I'd like to see both banned as commanders, not banned as cards in deck.

As it stands, I'm probably going to be banning selvala in my store.


*maniacal laughter*

*runs off to find his Berserk and check the price on Dreadnought*

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I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-14 4:25 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
<unnecessarily serious answer>

Selvala beats Rofellos because Selvala does extra broken things <1% of the time?

Raffi is not banned because of what it does <1% of the time. It's banned because of what it will do, reliably, game after game.

Count the games played before you see that 30+ mana turn 3 play again.

Play that many games with Raffi, and count the games that Raffi fails to have 10 mana on turn 4.

A player will get extra Forests down plus Raffi in every game.

To boot, the early interaction ( Path/Swords/Push/Bolt/whatever ) is less annoying to Raffi than Selvala. The Raffi deck relies on extra Forests, which conveniently helps replay Raffi. Breaking Selvala relies on to putting extra creature power into play, which doesn't help replay Selvala.

</unnecessarily serious answer>

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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 7:14 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Selvala doesn't tap for more than 5 often. Rofellos taps for 10+ frequently before considerations about infinite combos like Umbral Mantle.

Rofellos is fueled by every Cultivate variant and doubles up with Gaea's Cradle. Selvala is fueld by fatties. Most EDH decks run ways to handle fatties, few can stop Cultivates from going nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 9:44 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Selvala doesn't tap for more than 5 often. Rofellos taps for 10+ frequently before considerations about infinite combos like Umbral Mantle.

Rofellos is fueled by every Cultivate variant and doubles up with Gaea's Cradle. Selvala is fueld by fatties. Most EDH decks run ways to handle fatties, few can stop Cultivates from going nuts.


You've never played a Selvala deck, have you? Because saying she doesn't tap for more than five often is crazy talk.

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 5:49 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Selvala doesn't tap for less than 5 often.


Fixed that for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 10:33 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
Mr Degradation wrote:
Selvala doesn't tap for more than 5 often. Rofellos taps for 10+ frequently before considerations about infinite combos like Umbral Mantle.

Rofellos is fueled by every Cultivate variant and doubles up with Gaea's Cradle. Selvala is fueld by fatties. Most EDH decks run ways to handle fatties, few can stop Cultivates from going nuts.


A turn 3 Realm Seeker would like to talk to you. Throw on Nature's Chosen and you have a turn 4 Gen Wave for 40-50.

The trick with Selvala is her fatties create more mana while leaving something dangerous on the table. Cultivate fuels insanity, but you need something else to create the danger. Basically answer the danger and ignore the ramp.

I would invite you to watch some serious Selvala decks in action. You saw my decklist thread - there are very few dead hands for me - and I normally draw into a workable strategy fairly quickly. Players are starting to tell me 'I don't want to play against Selvala'.


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-27 12:36 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
crimson wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
Selvala doesn't tap for more than 5 often. Rofellos taps for 10+ frequently before considerations about infinite combos like Umbral Mantle.

Rofellos is fueled by every Cultivate variant and doubles up with Gaea's Cradle. Selvala is fueld by fatties. Most EDH decks run ways to handle fatties, few can stop Cultivates from going nuts.


A turn 3 Realm Seeker would like to talk to you. Throw on Nature's Chosen and you have a turn 4 Gen Wave for 40-50.

The trick with Selvala is her fatties create more mana while leaving something dangerous on the table. Cultivate fuels insanity, but you need something else to create the danger. Basically answer the danger and ignore the ramp.

I would invite you to watch some serious Selvala decks in action. You saw my decklist thread - there are very few dead hands for me - and I normally draw into a workable strategy fairly quickly. Players are starting to tell me 'I don't want to play against Selvala'.


lol, I'm one of the degenerates who packs their decks full of inexpensive ways to slow down hyper-ramp. So my experiences with Selvala and Yisan have been slanted. In 4 player games, the Sel player has a hard time keeping anything on the board that makes it remotely comparable to Rofellos. Maybe it's because we've just learned to expect the guys who play Yisan and Selvala to do silly things and evaluate our plans thusly- but I've yet to see Selvala go off until everyone else starts knee-capping one another.

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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 6:59 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
My local playgroup has found that the best way to handle Selvala is to kill Selvala. Once I hit the 6 mana range I tend to be able to run more and more without Selvala anyways.

I am curious. If you are investing resources into slowing down specific deck strategies, I do have to wonder how well your decks work? Slowing down 1 player while others progress usually means you just play kingmaker and determine who is allowed to win.

Wondering if this is how it plays out in your games?


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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 5:58 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
crimson wrote:
My local playgroup has found that the best way to handle Selvala is to kill Selvala. Once I hit the 6 mana range I tend to be able to run more and more without Selvala anyways.

I am curious. If you are investing resources into slowing down specific deck strategies, I do have to wonder how well your decks work? Slowing down 1 player while others progress usually means you just play kingmaker and determine who is allowed to win.

Wondering if this is how it plays out in your games?


Slowing down creature decks doesn't really warp play all too much. Generally, answering Selvala the first time puts it off long enough to let it's explosive plays be handled with careful wraths. The idea isn't to outright spend several cards to shut down the aggressive deck, it's to put it off of excessive production enough to develop better answers to things multiple players are doing- or fight it off with your own development. Again, the big thing about Sel and Yisan by comparison to Rofellos, is that it's very rare to actually have to take multiple turns off to just deal with a busted commander. Then, you let the commander tax take care of the rest.

In EDH, I've found that it's often bad to simply try to shut someone down, but if they are particularly threatening, just making their development less ambitious leads to interesting games that are less likely to end in a blowout.

Teching and metagaming is sortof typical EDH affair, but most of the time- it's relatively easy to find tech that splashes over several archetypes of things to deal with. Where Swords/Terror/Bolt/Boomerang variants don't really carry an opportunity cost since you're relying on some number of them for flexibility anyways. EG: If I were truly afraid of Selvala's damage potential, I might play Hallowed Burial over Wrath of God, but Swords to Plowshares is already an appropriate way to slow them down anyways, the same as any other opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-29 6:37 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-16 11:05 pm
Age: Wyvern
Mr Degradation wrote:
Slowing down creature decks doesn't really warp play all too much. Generally, answering Selvala the first time puts it off long enough to let it's explosive plays be handled with careful wraths. The idea isn't to outright spend several cards to shut down the aggressive deck, it's to put it off of excessive production enough to develop better answers to things multiple players are doing- or fight it off with your own development. Again, the big thing about Sel and Yisan by comparison to Rofellos, is that it's very rare to actually have to take multiple turns off to just deal with a busted commander. Then, you let the commander tax take care of the rest.

In EDH, I've found that it's often bad to simply try to shut someone down, but if they are particularly threatening, just making their development less ambitious leads to interesting games that are less likely to end in a blowout.

Teching and metagaming is sortof typical EDH affair, but most of the time- it's relatively easy to find tech that splashes over several archetypes of things to deal with. Where Swords/Terror/Bolt/Boomerang variants don't really carry an opportunity cost since you're relying on some number of them for flexibility anyways. EG: If I were truly afraid of Selvala's damage potential, I might play Hallowed Burial over Wrath of God, but Swords to Plowshares is already an appropriate way to slow them down anyways, the same as any other opponent.


Ah - so you would fit into my playgroup perfectly. Curse you blasted anti-Selvala degenerates!!

Seriously - I actually started to build in a lot of team protection into the deck as I fully expect to see a lot of answers. You questioned the reason for Ring of Three Wishes in my decklist - but the primary card I want from it is Heroic Intervention. Any other card I get without having to cast that is gravy.

Still got to keep an eye on her. The sheer explosiveness from an innocent board state is scary. Very scary. Best advice I've got when playing against Selvala - don't blink. Now who wants to watch 4 Selvala decks play each other?


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