Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-14 8:43 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-22 12:14 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Hey everyone,

I was curious as to everyone's thoughts on Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, especially that of the Rules Committee.
Not trying to start a thread to bash a card before it comes out... this isn't Worldfire after all...

I actually quite enjoy the versatility of Selvala 2.0 and the possibilities she brings to the game and plan on making a deck to use her. That being said, she is an interesting parallel to Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary.

A ramp commander is dangerous in some ways, especially when the potential ramp can escalate over time. While it's true that the first ability can benefit opponents as well as the owner, it doesn't impede a player from building a deck in such a way as to only be the one who benefits the greater majority of the time.

She's great in any deck that can run her, and she fixes colors like a mofo.

Because there is no longer a "Banned as a commander" distinction anymore, so banned means banned outside of house rules. And because Rofellos is banned for being too good at ramping, it's not hard to see why Selvala 2.0 could get the same treatment, considering that she's even better at ramping and isn't pigeon-holed into a single color with only basic lands to maximize the benefit.

TL;DR - I hope she doesn't get banned, but she's really, really good, and does everything a player could want.


Last edited by crimsonwings3689 on 2016-Aug-22 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-22 12:32 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-14 4:05 am
Age: Wyvern
Hi

Rofellos can make forests sprout from his pockets but with 1 toughness he must be wary of the timmy. The new Selvala is awesome, her first ability to create politics with card draws is always fun in multiplayer formats and if used as a green commander then big phat creatures should be on the way since Selvala knows fungi who knows beasts who knows leviathans,etc... :lol: :lol: I personally want her to add to my Ezuri claw of progress elf tribal deck, making mana in any combination is extremely useful. I prefer multicolour commanders but Selvala 2.0 has it all despite being a mono green (possible commander choice) creature.

cheers


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-22 2:02 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Rofellos requires no changes to double your mana, but ramps linearly. Selvala requires an engine, but has no ceiling.

My current best game involves Selvala helping make a Yew Spirit 48/48 on T5, untapping her with Wirewood Lodge for 48 mana, and casting Life's Legacy to draw 48, with 46 floating. Then cast Scryb Ranger, Quirion Ranger, Nature's Chosen, and Wirewood Symbiote, along with Hero's Bane and some other stuff. At this point I had 30 mana remaining, spending 28 to make Hero's Bane 512/512. Nature's Chosen untapped Selvala to allow her to use one of the remaining two mana to make 512, which went into Hero's Bane to make him 3.4x10^41/3.4x10^41. The next iteration would have seen Hero's Bane's P/T on the order of 10^(1.311x10^40), and I truly don't know how to calculate the last two iterations. Final P/T would probably have been ~10^10^10^10^40. I could probably have saved four mana to cast the Fungal Sprouting in my hand, too.

It seems that Rofellos allows a greater variety of strategies around his ramp, while Sally Hart requires narrower focus but with greater reward.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 12:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
She's "slower" but scales far faster. The card draw is likely completely inconsequential. Having seen Yisan in action, the untap shenanigans will be obnoxious. The 20 minute turns on turn 4-5 will be obnoxious. The turn 4-5 power plays vs turn 3 power plays will likely keep her off the banned list.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 12:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Some pretty major differences IMO:

1. Rofellos is cheaper. In explosive starts regarding the general, this is actually pretty important.

2. Rofellos's impact early game is larger and requires less effort. Pulling him out T2 gets you 6 mana on turn 3, assuming you've done nothing but play him and lands up to that point. Even getting a T1 mana dork and pulling Selvala out a turn early only gets you 5 mana by the same time.

3. It's easier to play a land or two every turn than it is to get a bigger creature every turn.

4. Selvala depends on big creatures coming into play, something which usually makes you have to tap out early-mid game. This is a problem for her because her ability requires mana.

5. If your opponent wraths late game and you recast Rofellos, you get all that mana back, no strings attached. If the same thing happens with Selvala, you may not be able to do so.

6. Selvala's first ability has the potential to help your opponents.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 12:57 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
4. Selvala depends on big creatures coming into play, something which usually makes you have to tap out early-mid game. This is a problem for her because her ability requires mana.

It only takes one big creature before she starts making problematic amounts of mana. Realistically, I think the higher CMC is the thing that makes her safe from a ban. Between that and needing a creature to start getting silly she is about 1.5-2 turns slower than Rofellos. I think she's going to be obnoxiously powerful, though.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 1:00 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Selvala's draw is a nice secondary. Bringing big creatures into play is less important than having big creatures in play. Dropping Hydra Broodmaster means an extra six mana next turn. Along with Broodmaster's mana cost that means monstrous for at least six, and 12 extra mana after that. Having creatures that can spend mana for power is even better, provided you can untap her. Even fire-breathing or Nylea's pump ability are significant resource boosts if she can be untapped. Heck, Nylea herself jumps you from four to nine mana available.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 1:24 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
I don't think she's even close to Rofellos's level. Selvala needs at least one 5-power or higher creature alive and four open mana (preferably more) to do what Rofellos can do with three lands and an Umbral Mantle.

Yes, she's going to make an extreme amount of mana sometimes, but so do things like Tomb+Coffers or Nykthos. Rofellos, on the other hand, is a mana dork that can start killing the table as early as the third game turn. Selvala isn't anywhere near that fast.

_________________
"Expect nothing but scorn, flattery, and lies. And never turn your back on him." - The Northern Paladin

Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Mortal Combat Dredge
Kamahl & Jeska - Tag Team Voltron


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 1:52 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Agree with Zirilian. Power level is just nowhere close to Rofellos.

Selvala is like Animar, except that she dies to removal and doesn't get to cast blue spells. When she gets going, she is able to do some bonkers stuff, but you do actually have to do some non-trivial work to get her going.

Rofellos is the biggest free roll of all time and does sufficiently dangerous things 1-2 turns faster.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 2:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
I don't think she's even close to Rofellos's level. Selvala needs at least one 5-power or higher creature alive and four open mana (preferably more) to do what Rofellos can do with three lands and an Umbral Mantle.

Yes, she's going to make an extreme amount of mana sometimes, but so do things like Tomb+Coffers or Nykthos. Rofellos, on the other hand, is a mana dork that can start killing the table as early as the third game turn. Selvala isn't anywhere near that fast.


It's really not fair to be comparing her to Nykthos or Coffers... Those both require FAR more support and aren't in the command zone. Neither are even close to the same level. She's absolutely slower than Rofellos but her ability is much stronger. Umbral Mantle shouldn't even factor in either... They both combo with it without outside assistance but combo isn't super relevant to power level comparisons. They both can combo off the same turn even if Rofellos can do it "easier".

Selvala can be ramped into and should. Rofellos can't realistically (a handful of either bad or terribly expensive cards...)

Ignoring any untap shenanigans an expected start...

Turn 3 Rofellos drops a "good" 6-9 drop for 6-9 power on the board and an ETB effect.
Turn 4 taps for 4-5.
Turn 3 Selvala drops an above curve three drop and an above curve 4-5 drop for 9-12 power on the board AND draws two cards.
Turn 4 taps for 6+.
Selvala is more resilient and VERY quickly surpasses Rofellos in mana potential.
Selvala cares about board presence while Rofellos cares about # of Forests. A good portion of his deck has to be devoted to getting out additional lands more than the average green deck. Selvala can just stuff more creatures.

Rofellos is better in very specific metas or with very specific cards. Selvala will get to the Eldrazi sized cards just as quickly and benefits far more from the board states they create. Selvala is better in the 99 since she's not a one color ramp. She can go in a 5c deck just as easily as a mono green and is just as efficient in all of them.

She is very much comparable to Rofellos. He's faster and more efficient early game which is important but this is a format where you WILL have support for your commander.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 3:04 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Turn 3 Selvala drops an above curve three drop and an above curve 4-5 drop for 9-12 power on the board AND draws two cards.
Turn 4 taps for 6+.
Selvala is more resilient and VERY quickly surpasses Rofellos in mana potential.
I'm not sure I buy this part.

Apart from an unkicked Tragic Slip, everything that kills Rofellos also kills Selvala. I don't think "more resilient" is a real thing, especially when it costs more mana to bring her back from CZ.

Selvala here is drawing pretty well and getting pretty lucky. First, she has a 1-drop ramp spell. Then none of her opponents have interaction or a 3/X or better to exploit her ability. Then she has a 4 or 5 drop in hand, (which is bigger than the things her also-goldfishing opponents are playing.) But also her deck is full of 8 drops to take advantage of her abilities.

Meanwhile, we are requiring that Refollos has... forests and something that costs 6ish mana to get a similar result.

If we were to run these decks head-to-head, Rofellos is almost certainly the deck that is drawing cards off Selvala's ability for turns 3-5. And Rofellos is also the deck that kicks Tooth and Nail on Turn 4 with a very average draw, making a lot of the fancy things that Selvala wants to do on turn 6 pretty irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to make a case that Selvala is bad. At all. She is a very powerful commander and will do broken stuff. But I'm way more afraid of an average Rofellos draw than an average Selvala draw, even if the Selvala goldfish god draw is potentially better than Rofellos's.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 3:41 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
4. Selvala depends on big creatures coming into play, something which usually makes you have to tap out early-mid game. This is a problem for her because her ability requires mana.

It only takes one big creature before she starts making problematic amounts of mana. Realistically, I think the higher CMC is the thing that makes her safe from a ban. Between that and needing a creature to start getting silly she is about 1.5-2 turns slower than Rofellos. I think she's going to be obnoxiously powerful, though.

My point is that she isn't stupid early on because it's pretty rare that you'll be able to play a big creature and then tap her for mana in the same turn in the early stages of the game. The reason why Rofellos is so dumb is because you get such a massive mana advantage from the get-go. Selvalva has better god hands, but Rofellos has more consistently good hands. He also benefits from including other ramp spells in the deck. His turn 3 play is better, his turn 4 play is slightly worse (unless he got a cultivate or something in, in which case it's better), and his very late game ramp is again much more consistent and resilient. If you have an 11/11 in play, someone's going to want it dead. If you have 11 forests in play, people probably aren't going to care.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 4:23 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ok so Selvala has to deal with no one else on the table having removal for her mana dork but Rofellos is just guaranteed a combo kill on turn 4 but removal isn't a consideration? What am I missing? Removal either is or isn't a problem. If it is a problem, it affects them both equally.

How many of your opponents play two mana 4 power creatures? I'm willing to bet the answer is 0... So how lucky is she getting that her ABOVE CURVE three drop has the highest power? Not lucky at all. How lucky is she getting that she has three cards in hand that are castable on curve? Depends on how the deck is built but not overly lucky.

She's more resilient because that turn four wrath of god took Rofellos' bomb and left him down a card while Selvala loses her board as well but has still drawn two cards (one if your opponents also ramped into an on curve 3-4 drop). Once you have a 6 or 8 power creature in play her first ability is essentially shut off so there's no incentive to build around that. It's just an early perk that you're best positioned to exploit.

Nowhere did I mention playing a ton of 8+ drops to abuse her ability. She plays off Hydras and power multipliers which are all very cheaply costed with plenty of ways to abuse excess mana.

People keep naming very specific cards that are broken with Rofellos. How lucky is that player for having that turn 4 kicked T&N + ramp spell (costs 9 not 8) or turn 3 umbral mantle with no blockers? About as lucky as that Selvala player having three random cards to cast on curve... She can have a dozen different options to choose from for each slot to get the same effect. It won't be a rare occurrence.

Both are broken without question. Both "nut draws" can go infinite on turn 2. Average to good draws should be considered not "best case scenarios". If there were only one perfect configuration for her to drop on turn 2 or curve to 4-5 on turn 3, it wouldn't be worth considering but there are a LOT of 3-4 drops above curve and there are a LOT of cards that will enable her to drop turn 2.

This is all for "fair" considerations though. She's far more exploitable with untap effects since even a Killer Bees enables exponential growth with an untap effect or two.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 6:29 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
She's more resilient because that turn four wrath of god took Rofellos' bomb and left him down a card while Selvala loses her board as well but has still drawn two cards (one if your opponents also ramped into an on curve 3-4 drop). Once you have a 6 or 8 power creature in play her first ability is essentially shut off so there's no incentive to build around that. It's just an early perk that you're best positioned to exploit.

Ok, so after the wrath Rofellos recasts himself, next turn has 10ish mana and plays a fatty or two or a bunch of ramp. Selvala recasts herself, next turn has 6ish mana and casts just one fatty (if that). Then 5 or so turns later, after they both have amassed a big board state, someone wraths again. Now when Rof gets recasted, he taps for 10 or so, giving you 20ish mana. Selvala recasts herself, has to cast a fatty before she taps herself for what is probably less than 10 mana.

There's also the kind of deck you can build with each of them. Rofellos doesn't need other cards to get his mana, so he can devote a lot more deck space to card advantage, thus allowing him to use his mana advantage better.

I don't think that there's any debate that she's an overall much more powerful card (as any 3 mana card should be over a 2 mana one), but Rofellos's lower cost and lack of dependency on other cards makes him a much more consistent and reliable general.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Selvala, Heart of the Wilds vs Rofellos Llanowar Emissary
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-23 7:09 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Ok, so after the wrath Rofellos recasts himself, next turn has 10ish mana and plays a fatty or two or a bunch of ramp. Selvala recasts herself, next turn has 6ish mana and casts just one fatty (if that). Then 5 or so turns later, after they both have amassed a big board state, someone wraths again. Now when Rof gets recasted, he taps for 10 or so, giving you 20ish mana. Selvala recasts herself, has to cast a fatty before she taps herself for what is probably less than 10 mana.

There's also the kind of deck you can build with each of them. Rofellos doesn't need other cards to get his mana, so he can devote a lot more deck space to card advantage, thus allowing him to use his mana advantage better.

I don't think that there's any debate that she's an overall much more powerful card (as any 3 mana card should be over a 2 mana one), but Rofellos's lower cost and lack of dependency on other cards makes him a much more consistent and reliable general.


So you cast a 5-6 drop and selvala taps for 6-8... You cast an 8 drop and Selvalla taps for 9... The same turn. Card advantage is going to be important to both decks but she has it built in. It's only in the first few turns where his ability has even a slight advantage. "If she doesn't have the card..." What good is Rofellos if he doesn't have a relevant card to cast?

Rofellos does not have a "lack of depency" on other cards. He is completely useless without a ramp target.

This has the combination effect that made Prophet bannable while Seedborn Muse isn't. This has insane ramp potential AND will help keep you stocked to use the ramp. Does that make her bannable? I don't know. It does make her comparable in power to Rofellos though.

Rofellos encourages you to ramp higher and higher and go all in on one big bomb way too early. She encourages you to cast a N-1 drop/spend N for "free" (where N is your total mana) and immediately follow it up with another card/ability.

She might not have as high a peak on power of included cards but she's more inclined to have uses for the extra mana which IMO makes her more consistent and reliable as a general.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: