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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:10 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
He fits in right along with the other multitude of Commanders that instantly arch enemy you at the start of the game.

DISCLAIMER: Generalisations ahead, table salt is that way -------> if you need extra salty tears.

Every decent Commander list runs card draw, so no one at any given table wants to sit across Leovold, ever.

The one Commander list that doesn't run card draw will be a bad list, piloted by a new/terrible player who likely has terrible threat assessment and will probably king make Leovald. You all know exactly what player and games I am talking about.

No Leovold list will sit down with a straight face and say "I'm just trying to control the control players guys". Well he will actually say it and the player above will eat that up like cake and be like "shit yeah, let's stick it to the man" followed by a massive high five and being completely oblivious to the fact that Leovold is in fact the man that needs sticking to. Leovold is the control player dummy, and he is self serving. That or he is the elf combo player. Either way, he dies first.

So as per the spoiler thread, my prediction is he will self regulate like every other obnoxious Commander that you hate sitting across. Even established "innocent" lists should die first, because the card as printed represents such a CA disparity between the pilot and the rest of the table, anyone with a wits sense should know that's a bad thing to have around. Everyone will want to leverage their own CA at some point as well, so best just eliminate that obstacle early and be done with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:23 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:50 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What are you doing by turn 3 to be able to hate him out first? What does he care if he becomes the archenemy when he's drawing at or above parity? Starting at turn 3 or 4, all of your opponents can no longer hit a land drop the same time they draw something to cast. Shutting off that 4th land drop is pretty huge in this format. This has the potential to be the archenemy commander that can easily win without schemes. That honestly sounds fun to play as a challenge when it might actually win.

Other archenemy commanders self regulate because they actually lose due to opponents drawing more cards overall than you. It's a losing proposition... Drawing 2-3 to the tables 3-6 just isn't going to work out. Don't want to lose first by default 75%+ of the time? Change generals. This one does not suffer from that overwhelming card disadvantage. You're not getting smacked by your own blightsteel or having your Sphinx stolen or cloned to make you reconsider playing them. You're putting down a solid soft lock early enough that it can reasonably be defended. Putting the table in top deck mode on turn 6-7 is rough but they can likely cast the things that will enable a recovery. Putting the table in top deck mode on 3-4... much more obnoxious.

Is it enough to get him banned? I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:39 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
No it's not Epsilon.

It's turn 3 to 4 lock if no one else has removal and it isn't technically a full lock unless deliberately combined with something that makes it a full lock.

After that he is a 5 or 6 drop or a 7 or 8 etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:42 am 
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I'm not sure if you can equate top deck mode with missing land drops, especially since there are plenty of ramp options for 3 or less, as well as artifacts that produce mana and fetches will grab you lands as well. I can see your point for sure, I'm just pointing out some ways around that game state.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 5:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 5:56 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
I was specifically addressing the game state Leovold sets up of missing the fourth land drop, which you cited as an issue with the card. I'm not in any way trying to argue that his ability doesn't let you run away with the game in terms of drawing cards and sculpting win-cons. I plan on using him as my go-to commander for cutthroat games. I just was pointing out ways to make your fourth land drop under Leovold.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 6:28 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Epsilon, no one is denying how powerful Leovald is or can be.

Leovald alone on turn 3 to 4 isn't a lock though at all. Heck he isn't even consequential. No one is looking for a major hand refill at this point, and 3 other players have had 9 to 12 draws between them to find removal. Yes he can protect himself etc. etc, but at this point a normal game of Commander is happening just like any early obnoxious Commander. Think Kaalia or Zur or whatever. Many lists can be early removal or bust.

Leovold with a lock piece or a windfall effect? Obnoxious, and and will get old so fast people are just going to ask the opponent to play something else.

He is iterally like any other Commander with a bad rep who has a 1 dimensional transparent way to play, that isn't creative or unique or cute and it gets old after 2 games.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:05 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The early turns are actually when most people are trying to refill hands and set up engines... I'm super happy to see an on curve Sylvan Library, Rhystic Study, Phyrexian Arena, or Mystic Remora. They're less likely to see immediate removal and will actually have an impact before it's too late to matter.

Social pressure is great at a kitchen table. It's far less effective at a LGS. You can try to avoid playing with people but it can often times come down to play with him or don't play at all. With decks like Zur you can hate them out most of the time simply due to raw card advantage of 3 vs 1. Kaalia isn't really even worth mentioning as a single removal spell or board wipe basically ends her game. Eventually they will change decks or find a more cutthroat or gullible store. If you can't hate them out though it will have no effect and you'll lose the good players instead of the one bad seed.

You can't outdraw Leovold and he combos much earlier than the other "self regulating" commanders. I'm a little skeptical that he'll be as "self regulating" as the others because of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:58 am 
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Age: Wyvern
I wouldn’t worry to much, Prophet of Kruphix has no built-in protection and once it hits the table, all eyes will be on it and the game will just be 3v1 and the game will self-regulate. That's how most threats are handled in battlecruiser.

Prophet of Kruphix might have oppressive interactions with other cards, but that is common to many, many creatures and is not a ban worthy characteristic. You can't even put Prophet in the command zone, but I do intend to build a deck with it and while I'm sure there will be a couple of easy wins, I believe unless you actively work to make an oppressive deck, it is fine.

This comes down to the deck designer, can you break Prophet of Kruphix? Absolutely. Will people keep playing with you when you do? Probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:58 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not being able to draw more than 1 card a turn isn't a lock. In fact, I'd call that the majority of turns in a commander game without Leovold.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 9:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:18 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:42 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
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Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! , cards like when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.

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