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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:10 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
He fits in right along with the other multitude of Commanders that instantly arch enemy you at the start of the game.

DISCLAIMER: Generalisations ahead, table salt is that way -------> if you need extra salty tears.

Every decent Commander list runs card draw, so no one at any given table wants to sit across Leovold, ever.

The one Commander list that doesn't run card draw will be a bad list, piloted by a new/terrible player who likely has terrible threat assessment and will probably king make Leovald. You all know exactly what player and games I am talking about.

No Leovold list will sit down with a straight face and say "I'm just trying to control the control players guys". Well he will actually say it and the player above will eat that up like cake and be like "shit yeah, let's stick it to the man" followed by a massive high five and being completely oblivious to the fact that Leovold is in fact the man that needs sticking to. Leovold is the control player dummy, and he is self serving. That or he is the elf combo player. Either way, he dies first.

So as per the spoiler thread, my prediction is he will self regulate like every other obnoxious Commander that you hate sitting across. Even established "innocent" lists should die first, because the card as printed represents such a CA disparity between the pilot and the rest of the table, anyone with a wits sense should know that's a bad thing to have around. Everyone will want to leverage their own CA at some point as well, so best just eliminate that obstacle early and be done with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:23 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Card seems fine. I think in play groups where people aren't all doing broken stuff, the degenerate builds with him will self-regulate out rather quickly.

I'm also not sure he's that good in competitive EDH because he doesn't proactively kill your opponents. I will admit I'm not an expert on cutthroat metas by any means, but he doesn't turn off graveyard nonsense or Demoic Tutors, so my guess is that he's probably too cute and not deadly enough.
He doesn't, but GY hate isn't exactly hard to come by.

Generally in the competitive sphere there are two types of decks: combo decks that try to win T2 or T3, or anything else. He's moderately good against some of the combo decks because he can prevent their cheap cantrips (and also shut down anything that requires drawing). Against anything else he's probably pretty strong. A lot of the best generals in the game have built-in card advantage or are most effective with other cards that give that. Off the top of my head, the only general I can think of that he isn't a threat to is Zur, although some Derevi lists could probably handle him.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 3:50 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
What are you doing by turn 3 to be able to hate him out first? What does he care if he becomes the archenemy when he's drawing at or above parity? Starting at turn 3 or 4, all of your opponents can no longer hit a land drop the same time they draw something to cast. Shutting off that 4th land drop is pretty huge in this format. This has the potential to be the archenemy commander that can easily win without schemes. That honestly sounds fun to play as a challenge when it might actually win.

Other archenemy commanders self regulate because they actually lose due to opponents drawing more cards overall than you. It's a losing proposition... Drawing 2-3 to the tables 3-6 just isn't going to work out. Don't want to lose first by default 75%+ of the time? Change generals. This one does not suffer from that overwhelming card disadvantage. You're not getting smacked by your own blightsteel or having your Sphinx stolen or cloned to make you reconsider playing them. You're putting down a solid soft lock early enough that it can reasonably be defended. Putting the table in top deck mode on turn 6-7 is rough but they can likely cast the things that will enable a recovery. Putting the table in top deck mode on 3-4... much more obnoxious.

Is it enough to get him banned? I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:39 am 
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No it's not Epsilon.

It's turn 3 to 4 lock if no one else has removal and it isn't technically a full lock unless deliberately combined with something that makes it a full lock.

After that he is a 5 or 6 drop or a 7 or 8 etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:42 am 
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I'm not sure if you can equate top deck mode with missing land drops, especially since there are plenty of ramp options for 3 or less, as well as artifacts that produce mana and fetches will grab you lands as well. I can see your point for sure, I'm just pointing out some ways around that game state.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 5:39 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
It's turn 3 to 4 lock if no one else has removal and it isn't technically a full lock unless deliberately combined with something that makes it a full lock.


Every lock is given the assumption that no one has an answer when they go for it... If they have removal, none of them work. Still, odds you draw removal by turn 6 vs by turn 4 are quite a bit better. Odds he draws a counter to your removal by the same time? ...or tutors for a piece of protection to play before the lock?

Either way, a lock is a lock. It's a soft lock unless you build in a way to make it harder but it's not like it becomes weaker as the game goes on. It becomes easier to protect as the game goes on.

His colors are the best at recursion, counters, draw, tutoring, ramping... There are multiple replacements for him and for the other side of the lock.

Quote:
I'm not sure if you can equate top deck mode with missing land drops, especially since there are plenty of ramp options for 3 or less, as well as artifacts that produce mana and fetches will grab you lands as well. I can see your point for sure, I'm just pointing out some ways around that game state.


What does any of that do to get you out of the game state? You draw a land or you draw a spell that you may or may not be able to cast. If those spells are ramp, are you any closer to getting out of said lock? You waste your turn ramping, the next player drew a land, the next player drew a card that costs more than however many lands they have out. Meanwhile, Leovold is churning through his deck crafting the perfect hand (or yard) while still being able to hold mana open to answer that one player that lucks into an answer every few turns. Eventually he solidifies the lock by playing Puzzle Box or by Sundering lands so there are 0 outs. Even just sundering before a wheel effect is going to be game.

It's not that what he does is more or less broken than other commanders. It's that he very early both enables a lock and makes it harder to recover at the same time. Teferi - Pool might be a stronger lock but it's also 11 mana vs 5-8. Card draw wins games... everyone knows this. Shutting down the ability for the rest of the table puts you in above average odds of winning to begin with. Playing cards that combo with his ability should make it pretty effortless to win even 3 vs 1 from the start.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 5:56 am 
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I was specifically addressing the game state Leovold sets up of missing the fourth land drop, which you cited as an issue with the card. I'm not in any way trying to argue that his ability doesn't let you run away with the game in terms of drawing cards and sculpting win-cons. I plan on using him as my go-to commander for cutthroat games. I just was pointing out ways to make your fourth land drop under Leovold.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 6:28 am 
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Epsilon, no one is denying how powerful Leovald is or can be.

Leovald alone on turn 3 to 4 isn't a lock though at all. Heck he isn't even consequential. No one is looking for a major hand refill at this point, and 3 other players have had 9 to 12 draws between them to find removal. Yes he can protect himself etc. etc, but at this point a normal game of Commander is happening just like any early obnoxious Commander. Think Kaalia or Zur or whatever. Many lists can be early removal or bust.

Leovold with a lock piece or a windfall effect? Obnoxious, and and will get old so fast people are just going to ask the opponent to play something else.

He is iterally like any other Commander with a bad rep who has a 1 dimensional transparent way to play, that isn't creative or unique or cute and it gets old after 2 games.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:05 am 
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crokaycete wrote:
Card seems fine. I think in play groups where people aren't all doing broken stuff, the degenerate builds with him will self-regulate out rather quickly.<br abp="1123"><br abp="1124">I'm also not sure he's that good in competitive EDH because he doesn't proactively kill your opponents. I will admit I'm not an expert on cutthroat metas by any means, but he doesn't turn off graveyard nonsense or Demoic Tutors, so my guess is that he's probably too cute and not deadly enough.



Precisely! I have a feeling Leo will go the way of Memnoth, Arccum, Teferi, Zur, Narset, or any of the prime combo commanders. We'll see a few new players try him out, drop TPB, realize it's not a fun win and take the deck apart.

In a souped up deck built around him, he's terrifying. I played a couple games against one. He will consistently lock the game down t5ish if you're not ready to deal with a combo deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The early turns are actually when most people are trying to refill hands and set up engines... I'm super happy to see an on curve Sylvan Library, Rhystic Study, Phyrexian Arena, or Mystic Remora. They're less likely to see immediate removal and will actually have an impact before it's too late to matter.

Social pressure is great at a kitchen table. It's far less effective at a LGS. You can try to avoid playing with people but it can often times come down to play with him or don't play at all. With decks like Zur you can hate them out most of the time simply due to raw card advantage of 3 vs 1. Kaalia isn't really even worth mentioning as a single removal spell or board wipe basically ends her game. Eventually they will change decks or find a more cutthroat or gullible store. If you can't hate them out though it will have no effect and you'll lose the good players instead of the one bad seed.

You can't outdraw Leovold and he combos much earlier than the other "self regulating" commanders. I'm a little skeptical that he'll be as "self regulating" as the others because of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:58 am 
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I wouldn’t worry to much, Prophet of Kruphix has no built-in protection and once it hits the table, all eyes will be on it and the game will just be 3v1 and the game will self-regulate. That's how most threats are handled in battlecruiser.

Prophet of Kruphix might have oppressive interactions with other cards, but that is common to many, many creatures and is not a ban worthy characteristic. You can't even put Prophet in the command zone, but I do intend to build a deck with it and while I'm sure there will be a couple of easy wins, I believe unless you actively work to make an oppressive deck, it is fine.

This comes down to the deck designer, can you break Prophet of Kruphix? Absolutely. Will people keep playing with you when you do? Probably not.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 8:58 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Not being able to draw more than 1 card a turn isn't a lock. In fact, I'd call that the majority of turns in a commander game without Leovold.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 9:21 am 
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Epsilon wrote:
The early turns are actually when most people are trying to refill hands and set up engines... I'm super happy to see an on curve Sylvan Library, Rhystic Study, Phyrexian Arena, or Mystic Remora. They're less likely to see immediate removal and will actually have an impact before it's too late to matter.

Social pressure is great at a kitchen table. It's far less effective at a LGS.


oh look, someone echoing the thing I've been repeating on these boards FOR FRIGGIN YEARS ON END! this is the source of all my issues with the format. I love the multiplayer aspect, I love the social interaction during the game and I love the bombastic crazy ass plays and deck types EDH lets you get away with, but the problem is there will always be a subset of people in your LGS who play the the same decks using the most powerful generals and the same one-note strategy that everyone hates.

Can you delete every possible broken thing from the format? of course not, but the ban list has a lot more room to grow and pretty much everyone knows it.

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:18 am 
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Epsilon wrote:
The early turns are actually when most people are trying to refill hands and set up engines... I'm super happy to see an on curve Sylvan Library, Rhystic Study, Phyrexian Arena, or Mystic Remora. They're less likely to see immediate removal and will actually have an impact before it's too late to matter.

Social pressure is great at a kitchen table. It's far less effective at a LGS. You can try to avoid playing with people but it can often times come down to play with him or don't play at all. With decks like Zur you can hate them out most of the time simply due to raw card advantage of 3 vs 1. Kaalia isn't really even worth mentioning as a single removal spell or board wipe basically ends her game. Eventually they will change decks or find a more cutthroat or gullible store. If you can't hate them out though it will have no effect and you'll lose the good players instead of the one bad seed.

You can't outdraw Leovold and he combos much earlier than the other "self regulating" commanders. I'm a little skeptical that he'll be as "self regulating" as the others because of this.


MTGO is the definition of a LGS with 0 social pressure. We are the pickup group nation of the Commander format. Every stereotype you hear about playing online is true, but also probably a bit exaggerated.

Surprisingly enough? Playing online is pretty pleasant though most of the time. Douche Commanders are basically unavoidable, but you move on and most people are pretty chill, sometimes just a little salty. The trolls online don't even like curb stomping people consistently on turn 3 or 4, because the satisfaction just isn't there. The trolls prey on those epic games where everyone thinks they are having a great time and then they curb stomp your game like it didn't matter, because no one can't help but shed some salty tears by that point to feed the trolls black, unforgiving soul.

So every time I hear the LGS social pressure argument, I can't help but chuckle a little, because you have to be playing with some capital grade A assholes on a very consistent basis for me to take in the argument that people in real life can't self moderate and sort out these kind of issues themselves.

Lock Leovold will get old so fast and I confidently suspect I'll have to suffer far more games against him then you will before it does :(.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:42 am 
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Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! Leovold, Emissary of Trest, cards like Underworld Dreams when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.

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