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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:47 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! Leovold, Emissary of Trest, cards like Underworld Dreams when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.

For the love of Urza, Ban ki-Moon, can you stop trolling us please. I don't think I can take it anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 12:03 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! Leovold, Emissary of Trest, cards like Underworld Dreams when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.


specter404 wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
You misunderstand, if I am against him, Underworld dreams and Dictate of Kruphix are examples of where it will trigger Leovold's ability to where it goes infinite and essentially assasinating him


No, you misunderstand how magic works. Here's what I need you to do, print out a piece of paper that says "RTFC" in big letters, stick it next to your computer and before you click send on any post here I want you to read that sign, then read the cards you are posting about and then check that they do what you think they do.

Leovold says "target", Underworld dreams, does not.

This is why EG always beat you, not because he's good, but because he knew how the read the damned cards.


Listened, responded, explained how you don't understand magic, feel fee to go away now and let the big boys talk.

Epsilon wrote:
Either way, a lock is a lock. It's a soft lock unless you build in a way to make it harder but it's not like it becomes weaker as the game goes on. It becomes easier to protect as the game goes on.


He's not a lock though. A lock is something which prevents people playing. Leovold is Spirit of the labyrinth. He only locks you if you add something else in. Turning off people's extra draws is not preventing them from playing, only slowing them down. Even the very evil puzzle box play is only a soft lock because insant speed kills still work.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2016-Aug-29 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:17 pm 
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GoodbyeWorld wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! Leovold, Emissary of Trest, cards like Underworld Dreams when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.

For the love of Urza, Ban ki-Moon, can you stop trolling us please. I don't think I can take it anymore.


Wait my bad, I didn't see the 'You may" part, that is my foul up.

@Specter404

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Aside from that, Leovold isn't banworthy and is definitely something that is meant for EDH considering a lot more legendaries as of late seem to cater towards that aspect such as General Tazri, Gisa and Geralf, and even Kozilek the Great Distortion, which to qoute one of my opponents on MTGO, "Ofc you have Seven CMC" when taking advantage of his awesome ability. Generally speaking, ever since Return to Ravinica and the continuity of sets from there on, we've been getting a steady influx of great commanders like Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Alesha who smiles at Death, Omnath, Locus Rage, and a couple others.

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Last edited by RaiRai on 2016-Aug-29 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 4:30 pm 
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RaiRai wrote:
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
RaiRai wrote:
Why no one listen to RaiRai about Leovold's ability? He have major weakness which makes anyone playing him extremely vulnerable! Leovold, Emissary of Trest, cards like Underworld Dreams when played by an opponent will either force him to lose life or completely draw out thanks to his ability.

For the love of Urza, Ban ki-Moon, can you stop trolling us please. I don't think I can take it anymore.


Wait my bad, I didn't see the 'You may" part, that is my bad.


Additionally, Underworld Dreams and Dictate of Kruphix do not target, so they would not trigger Leovold's second ability, as Specter404 so nicely pointed out on both this page and the one previous.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-29 11:16 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
let the big boys talk.
Guys, I think Rairai is actually 12 years old. Not as a goof or putdown. Like he was literally born circa 2004. Look back at his posts. They all make perfect sense in this context.

* Has been playing short time, thinks it's a long time.
* Doesn't know the rules, makes up his own rules rather than finding out how it actually works.
* Has weird opinions on cards, doesn't realize they are weird.
* Has extremely narrow view of the format (one shop in Vegas) and extrapolates that the whole world is like that.
* Knows a guy named Greg who owns more cards than him and his friends, calls this guy "Evil Greg." Tells completely incoherent story about the one time he beat that guy as if it were of broad interest to the people on this board.

So, yeah, he gets a lot of things wrong. Some really wrong. Repeatedly. But just assume this is the same as talking to a little kid at the LGS, and try not to worry too much if he's just running around, bouncing off the walls and not actually listening.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 1:04 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think that his general age was clear after a few posts, though I'd assumed a couple years older. However, I feel that what makes young, inexperienced players into ancient grognards like us older, experienced players is both the willingness of the more experienced players to teach (compassionately), as well as the willingness of the newer player to learn. Rairai has not yet shown the willingness to learn, but that does not mean that ridiculing or ignoring him will help. He clearly has great interest in the game, and could become a valued member of the community if he makes the effort to gain more understanding of how to evaluate cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 4:23 am 
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This isn't even a discussion about Leovold anymore. No one is reading the comments. This is childish.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 6:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
iplaymtg wrote:
This isn't even a discussion about Leovold anymore. No one is reading the comments. This is childish.

if by childish you mean "completely awesome," then i agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 7:31 am 
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Let's try to keep discussion on track instead of talking about how old RaiRai may be.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 7:46 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
I think that his general age was clear after a few posts, though I'd assumed a couple years older. However, I feel that what makes young, inexperienced players into ancient grognards like us older, experienced players is both the willingness of the more experienced players to teach (compassionately), as well as the willingness of the newer player to learn. Rairai has not yet shown the willingness to learn, but that does not mean that ridiculing or ignoring him will help. He clearly has great interest in the game, and could become a valued member of the community if he makes the effort to gain more understanding of how to evaluate cards.


Ridiculing does help me pass the time...

Alright, you are right of course, I'd like to think I started with a compassionate approach, that wears away after a while in the face of repeated ignorance. The greatest challenge for most people is understanding and acknowledging what we dont know, so if a person is unwilling to look outside their own scope of the world and accept that there is more to know then there isnt much you can do.

I'm happy to reset my first impressions (as much as one can reasonably be expected to) and see how that works out.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 3:44 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
I'm not sure about Leovold, but I think I'll try making a constructive post about him.

-Blue/Black/Green Color Identity: He has access to some of the best tutors, reanimation, counters, draw, recovery, and mana ramp. I probably missed something. Leovold also has access to some of the best Sphinxes, Demons, Vampires, and Green Heavy-Hitters, and a lot of flexibility as far as token production.

-Passive Draw Lockdown: Turn 3 draw lockdown isn't a big problem in my play group, but it would hose a couple decks in my play group. I could understand it becoming a problem in some play groups.

-Extra Draws: He gives a draw every time one of his permanents, himself included, is targeted. My question is if his ability triggers before or after the targeting affect resolves, because that's a big difference. As for the draws when the player is targeted, that's more situational, at least from what I've seen in my play group.

Now as for what banning criteria he fits...

-As for creating undesirable games/game situations, I see this as a strong possibility. Any deck built to interact with his lockdown on draw could really cause some damage, and I'll also point out that he has access to some of the best discard effects in the game with his black color identity. With blue, he also has access to a lot of control and counters to protect him as a commander. It's entirely possible he could create undesirable games/game situations, and like a lot of things, the many who want to break something so they can win can/will ruin it for the rest of us.

-Strategically warping the format? I could see it happening if he's popular enough. He locks down draw, which is easy to take advantage of. There are plenty of ways of emptying every hand at the table even if he dies and is played a second time. He has access to the best reanimation, recovery, discard, and counter cards. My Nekusar deck actually has several ways of making people draw new hands, but for a completely different reason. The only blue card that does that in my Nekusar deck is Wheel and Deal, but I'm sure some of the more experienced people could name a few more.

My final thoughts are that he's not a problem for me. My play group isn't interested in the lockdown strategy, so Leovold is a card I will likely not see for years as a commander, if at all. What do I know about the rest of the MtG Commander community? Well, I know Braids and Erayo are both on the ban list, are both lockdown, and are both easily able to be played on turn 3 if not sooner. Is it a fair comparison? I think it's better then comparing them to a nine CMC Iona, Shield of Emeria, which is also lockdown but of a completely different color. It looks to me like low CMC lockdown commanders are a problem. My final thought is he's just another Painter's Servant, but one could argue that since he's a commander, he's worse then Painter's Servant.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 6:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Drrakus wrote:
Now as for what banning criteria he fits...

-As for creating undesirable games/game situations, I see this as a strong possibility. Any deck built to interact with his lockdown on draw could really cause some damage

The card itself needs to create the undesirable state, not in combination with other cards.

Quote:
-Strategically warping the format? I could see it happening if he's popular enough. He locks down draw, which is easy to take advantage of.


Again, the ability to negatively leverage his ability and the extent to which that happens is a choice made by the deck builder. We cant ban cards based on what they can do with other cards or the ban list would be a mile long. Black Mike is easy to take advantage of when you have triskelion, but neither are worthy of a ban.

Quote:
What do I know about the rest of the MtG Commander community? Well, I know Braids and Erayo are both on the ban list, are both lockdown, and are both easily able to be played on turn 3 if not sooner. Is it a fair comparison? I think it's better then comparing them to a nine CMC Iona, Shield of Emeria, which is also lockdown but of a completely different color. It looks to me like low CMC lockdown commanders are a problem. My final thought is he's just another Painter's Servant, but one could argue that since he's a commander, he's worse then Painter's Servant.


Braids and erayo are lock pieces by themselves, which is the big difference between them and Leo. Leo does not lock anyone out without the addition of something else from a specific subset of cards. You could argue erayo also doesnt lock you out by itself, but it only asks that you play more spells, whereas Leo required you to play specifically wheels.

TLDR: Leo's colour identity and his interaction with wheels should not be used to ban him, because ban decisions should primarily relate to the card in a (EDH shaped) vacuum.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-31 3:41 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
I compared Leovold to Painter's Servant because he looks like a combo enabler, but I don't know all the different combos he works with. This is what I'm thinking as far as banning Leovold.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3231

Quote:
Painter’s Servant has been the fuel for unpleasant combos, most notably with Grindstone and Iona, Shield of Emeria. The latter two cards occupy some interesting design/deckbuilding space, so we’d like to see them in the format. Swapping Grindstone/Painter’s Servant seemed like a natural fit to bring back a decent card and get rid of the true offender.


Painter's Servant was a combo enabler, and the cards it can combo with it were why it was banned and not the other cards. Leovold is going to be a different kind of combo enabler, because he's able to be used as commander, and won't go away permanently once he gets exiled, which is why I compared him to Braids and Erayo.

I don't know every card he can combo with, but I do know that there are plenty out there that are like Wheel and Deal and Teferi's Puzzle Box. Whether comparing Leovold to Painter's Servant is fair or not is the question. If it is fair, I think there's already grounds to ban him. If it's not fair, I hope that people who use him as commander won't give us reason to believe otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-31 5:30 am 
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I have to say comparing Leovold. to Painter's Servant is very enlightening. Painter does nothing very interesting when it comes into play without the support of other cards that aren't overpowered by themselves. Together, however, they stop people from being able to play the game at all.

Leovold also comes with protection AND can be put into your command zone. Food for thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-31 10:17 am 
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I'm not going to go into all of the reasons why PS doesn't belong on the banlist at all... But that aside, it and Leovold are not at all in the same category. PS is a card that does virtually nothing on its own, has some cool interactions with a couple generals and random good cards, and has some obnoxious interactions with 2-3 generals and a bunch of otherwise useless cards (maybe 3-4 exceptions). Leovold has a powerful yet not overbearing presence that can be broken with one specific semi-useful sub-group of cards. He also is himself a general and probably not that great as part of the 99.

Comparing those two cards is just plain silly. The only thing they have in common is that I personally don't think either should be banned. The closest banned card we have to compare it to is somewhere in between Prophet of Kruphix and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, both of them being pretty bad comparisons anyway.

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