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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-01 9:36 am 
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I don't see how he really keeps a lockdown unless the Leovold Player is usingWeb of Inertia, Necrogenesis, and Season of the Witch via Donate then Witchbane Orb to counteract the effect

Besides, Leovole can easily be hit by a Clutch of currents then Perish the Thought of Him! Bye bye commander!

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-01 11:36 am 
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RaiRai wrote:
I don't see how he really keeps a lockdown unless the Leovold Player is usingWeb of Inertia, Necrogenesis, and Season of the Witch via Donate then Witchbane Orb to counteract the effect

Besides, Leovole can easily be hit by a Clutch of currents then Perish the Thought of Him! Bye bye commander!

Witchbane Orb doesn't stop any of those cards, namely Web of Inertia, Necrogenesis, and Season of the Witch.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-01 11:51 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Witchbane orb gives you hexproof, but that is only you, not your creatures/permanents or your graveyard. Hexproof stops spells or abilities targeting you.

Web of inertia does not target, neither does season of the witch, so witchbane does nothing there.
Necrogenesis does target but it doesn't target you, it target a card in your graveyard, so the orb is similarly unhelpful.
In addition donating season of the witch doesnt force it's new owner to keep it. The new owner is free to choose not to pay two life and destroy the season.

It is really important to understand the difference between effects that target and those that don't, especially when discussing Leovold. Targeted effects must literally have the word target printed on them, whilst non-targeted effects use words like each.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-01 12:19 pm 
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RaiRai wrote:
Besides, Leovole can easily be hit by a Clutch of currents then Perish the Thought of Him! Bye bye commander!

This doesn't really work. They changed the rules on these kinds of effects months ago. He'd just hit the CZ again. At that point you might as well just throw a Murder on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-01 10:53 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai started this thread actually not knowing those cards didn't target. He's trolling now. Stop the feed.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 1:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
It seems to me the main argument for him being able to lock a table is that once he empties your hand, and adds another regular discard effect, then you only get to use one spell per turn.

Teferi's puzzle box aside, most discard effects mentioned above are on the Leovold players' turn. So all three opponents draw before it comes back around for leovold to make them discard again. So just to be clear we have a 3 piece lock, one of which is the commander, which is only a soft lock forcing players to get stuck in top deck mode, it doesnt win the game.

Once again:
- 2 Cards + commander
- Makes the game archenemy
- Doesnt end the game
- Doesnt actually lock the game

If any player draws removal the lock stops. "oh but they're playing blue so counterspell", how many counters do they have? because 3 players are looking for removal to end the lock.

It's very annoying, it's something people can set up, but really think through how many hoops need to be jumped through to make this a genuine lock. This is not one card ruining the game, it is a coordinated game plan being implemented.


It's not a 3 card combo though... It's a two card combo with 3+ options for both sides of it. One side just happens to be in the command zone. A third card will help ensure the lesser options actually make it a lock but are by no means necessary.

It does ACTUALLY lock the game. You're not limited to one card per turn. You're limited to playing instant speed in your draw step.

How many counter spells do they have? More than they need. If it's a four player game and each deck has 3-4 instant speed options there's less than a 10% chance that anyone will draw one in top deck mode at one card per turn. That chance can be reduced even further the earlier the lock happens since you may not even have the color(s) needed to cast all of your instant speed outs or if the removal you draw isn't permanent enough... None of this is even considering shroud/hexproof effects that just preemptively protect your combo. The counters you'll see are also going to be repeatable or free. Kira? Glen Elendra?

It IS one card ruining the game. Shutting off card advantage is a big deal. Card advantage is how you win in multiplayer. You have to be extremely lucky to do well without card advantage. Three mana "increase your odds of winning by 75%" is a pretty big deal. EVERY commander deck is a coordinated game plan coming together. With Leovold in the command zone it brings the combo into the lime light. It still existed and was reasonably powerful before but it had to go into decks intentionally and you had to actually draw the parts. Because it wasn't a hard lock, it wasn't widely seen since it's not "worth it". With a combo piece in the command zone this will show up far more often and far earlier. It won't be 100% effective but it will be effective often enough to be a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 6:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Leo looks like a giant dick.

Can he be banned? Yeah. It just depends on how badly he gets used.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 9:03 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
It's not a 3 card combo though... It's a two card combo with 3+ options for both sides of it. One side just happens to be in the command zone. A third card will help ensure the lesser options actually make it a lock but are by no means necessary.


You're going to have to explain what those 3+ options are to me then, because other than the puzzle box I dont get how this puts you to instant speed answers only.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-02 11:26 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
I listed the 'Each Player Discards a Card' and 'Each Opponent Discards a Card' that I could find on page 4. That's just the stuff I went looking for. Leovold isn't an easy two-card lock like some cards are, which is why he seems less threatening then he really is. It's my understanding that people think that the more cards a combo needs, the less chance it can be used.

I'm not really sure what all options Leovold has, because black and red are my two worst colors, and outside of artifact stuff, blue is around the same as those two for me. I'm my play group's 'artifact guy', and I have no idea what half of the shenanigans Leovold might be able to pull with Isochron Scepter, Mirari, Knowledge Pool, Master Transmuter, Font of Mythos, Phyrexian Revoker, and/or half a dozen other artifacts that I don't feel like digging through my decks to find. I do know that if U/B/G has nearly as many options as artifacts do, it would take all day to find and list them all.

Leovold is new, so we have yet to see just how bad he might get. Leovold is low CMC, so he's easy to get out early. Leovold is soft lockdown, so it's easy to dismiss him as not a very big threat. Leovold is also going to be popular, because there are only four other U/B/G commanders: Damia has yet to be reprinted, and the Mimeoplasm was only reprinted in the Commander's Arsenal. I also consider Leovold a significantly better choice over Sidisi and Vorosh.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 3:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Played several games with Leovold yesterday with what I would consider a fairly casual build (no fetches or ABUR duals, no Twister, minimal tutor package). It was fine. It didn't do anything oppressive apart from stop the Edric player from winning. I wheeled a couple of times each game and put everyone at 1 card, but mostly people were able to remove Leovold and recover. I won about 25% of the games I played.

Not really seeing a problem here.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 11:21 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
i havent built him yet, but that sounds like how it would go.

Leo isnt going to accidentally ruin too many games the way Braids would (aside from the fact someone picked her as a commander).

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 3:47 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Drrakus wrote:
I listed the 'Each Player Discards a Card' and 'Each Opponent Discards a Card' that I could find on page 4. That's just the stuff I went looking for. Leovold isn't an easy two-card lock like some cards are, which is why he seems less threatening then he really is.


Epsilon stated that Leovold is a two card lock out combo which forces you to only play instant speed removal in your draw step. Almost nothing you mentioned has that effect, even if you assume players start with 0 cards in hand.

The only card I know of that does this is Teferi's Puzzle Box, in which case we should also ban Teferi for his interactions with knowledge pool.

Quote:
It's my understanding that people think that the more cards a combo needs, the less chance it can be used.

Thats not peoples thought, its mathematical fact. The more pieces you need to make something work, the less chance there is of having them all at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 9:53 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There's Anvil of Bogordan. Also, any of four or so instant speed loot abilities, even if they ony target a single player.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-03 10:31 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You still need a third card to get everyone's hand empty first.

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-04 12:35 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Okay, so we're all panicking, because if you cast Leovold, activate Geier Reach Sanitarium, cast Anvil of Bogardan, and then cast Windfall, nobody gets to keep their hand?

A four card combo that doesn't even win the game.

What a time to be alive.


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