Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Aug-20 2:26 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 3:53 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Puzzle box does it immediately while the other options are slightly slower but they're very much still a lock.

Fine, call it a lock. It is just a lock about as secure as the door of a $25/night motel.

Anvil of Bogardan is only going to get you down to an empty hand [i]if[/c] nobody has an answer to either the artifact or the creature and [i]if[/c] the table doesn't just archenemy out the Leovold player and [i]if[/c] you aren't playing non-draw sources of card advantage (you know, like Land Tax, Fact or Fiction, Oversold Cemetery, Outpost Siege, or Nissa's Pilgrimage off the top of my head) or ways to draw cards off-turn. It sure isn't going to be particularly fun unless you like that kind of resource battle, but broken it isn't.


Oversold cemetery is a bit of a stretch five creatures in your graveyard to keep it at four to trigger... If you're playing such things, you'll become the primary target until he draws into one of the dozens of options to solidify the lock. Archenemy isn't going to work without card advantage. One player having a temporary "out" doesn't suddenly improve the odds for the other two still under the lock. Leovold does not play 3 v 1. At best you'll be 1.5 v 1 unless someone has an immediate answer to the lock before it comes down. Those odds are very easy to win when you have real card draw and the rest of the table doesn't.

A turn 2 bitterblossom vs braids doesn't make her not bannable and doesn't help the rest of the table in any way. The same applies to an early land tax or abundance vs Leovold.

The bolded statement is the important part here. He looks like he'll be fun but he clearly isn't. The not broken part is debatable but he likely is broken as well.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 4:56 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Epsilon wrote:
Oversold cemetery is a bit of a stretch five creatures in your graveyard to keep it at four to trigger...
That is easier than keeping 3 other players hellbent, especially if you are discarding a card every turn which could easily be the same card that you just picked up from your graveyard if your draw step gave you something better.

Quote:
The bolded statement is the important part here. He looks like he'll be fun but he clearly isn't.
I don't how you think that people are going to be accidentally building him in an unfun manner. If they're building him for power, sure, they might include heavy resource denial. Nobody is going to include Puzzle Box and the rest and think that they're doing it to make sure everybody gets to play a game of Magic.

He is never going to accidentally ruin games. He is not powerful enough to get a ban for pure degeneracy. He has enough potential for non-jerk decks that the possibility of him being used as a DB general is outweighed.

Basically everything about him lines up with the stuff said in RaiRai's Kaalia thread. There are a few obvious cards that are very anti-social to include with him. Their inclusion in the deck is indicative of a player issue, not an issue with the card itself.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 5:28 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Oversold cemetery is a bit of a stretch five creatures in your graveyard to keep it at four to trigger...
That is easier than keeping 3 other players hellbent, especially if you are discarding a card every turn which could easily be the same card that you just picked up from your graveyard if your draw step gave you something better.

Quote:
The bolded statement is the important part here. He looks like he'll be fun but he clearly isn't.
I don't how you think that people are going to be accidentally building him in an unfun manner.


Getting 5 creature cards into your graveyard/hand by turn ~4 is easier than drawing a single tutor or wheel effect? Are you playing 60 creatures? If not, not even close.

Find me a decklist that's been posted on the internet by any major website that DOESN'T include cards that lead to him being unfun.

His announcement article included several wheel effects as well as Anvil of Bogardan and called them fun. They ARE fun. They are not fun with Leovold out.

Sheldon built a deck around him for SCG including Puzzle Box as well as several wheel effects. He did at least include a disclaimer that some people may not like it... That did not stop him from including the cards.

EDHREC has two wheel effects, puzzle box and Anvil of Bogardan as the four most heavily played cards with him. The next four highest played cards are all wheel effects... All of these are actually fun cards.

EVERY major site that has built around him has done the same things that will be unfun and claiming that they will be fun. It's VERY easy for someone to accidentally build him in an unfun way simply by taking ideas from online lists without realizing the implications of the interactions. Then they just win and, of course, they had fun so it snowballs.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 5:39 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Epsilon wrote:
Getting 5 creature cards into your graveyard/hand by turn ~4 is easier than drawing a single tutor or wheel effect? Are you playing 60 creatures? If not, not even close.
You are talking about locking somebody out with Anvil. You only need 4 creatures in yard before your hand is empty to avoid being locked. Yes, you will start losing some resources around turn 4. If you are capable of forming a plan that extends beyond one turn, you are going to be putting dudes in your bin at that point if you have Oversold Cemetery.

Quote:
EVERY major site that has built around him has done the same things that will be unfun and claiming that they will be fun.
Those are fun if you are the type of player who netdecks EDH decks. This does nothing to convince me that it isn't a player issue.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 6:03 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I've heard complaints and calls for Bans already, I'm pretty sure he just snags a wrath effect asap then we move on. It's Archenemy in the way Narset is, and no one plays Narset anymore so w/e.

I haven't seen one around our tables though, so maybe this is just a group/player issue.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 6:24 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
CrazyPierre wrote:
It's Archenemy in the way Narset is, and no one plays Narset anymore so w/e.

I think that is a perfect comparison. There is a clear, powerful way to build a pretty linear deck with a shiny, new commander. People will do it for a while, then get bored with playing an unfun deck.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 6:37 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
All of these are actually fun cards.

No the hell they're not. See the problem here? "Fun" is relative.

Epsilon wrote:
EVERY major site that has built around him has done the same things that will be unfun and claiming that they will be fun. It's VERY easy for someone to accidentally build him in an unfun way simply by taking ideas from online lists without realizing the implications of the interactions. Then they just win and, of course, they had fun so it snowballs.

That is exactly a player issue. You don't have to attempt to lock people's hand size to 0/1.

As the player running UBG-Nekusar deck, wouldn't you sense that you are kind of being a griefy douche after you realize that people aren't happy with your attempts to lock the game?

JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
]EVERY major site that has built around him has done the same things that will be unfun and claiming that they will be fun.
Those are fun if you are the type of player who netdecks EDH decks. This does nothing to convince me that it isn't a player issue.

I don't tend to think that casual players (casual, or more specifically, people who don't want to lock you out of the game with Leovold's Puzzle Box) run netdecks, but since i've never been to EDHREC i've got to ask; is this for competitive or casual sides of the format? Both?

Either way, i'm pretty sure that since he's new and has obvious combos, people want to jam that first. It's shiny and new. It'll wear off and the reasonable midrangey and control decks will show up more often.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 6:47 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
All of these are actually fun cards.

No the hell they're not. See the problem here? "Fun" is relative.


What is unfun about a wheel effect? Disregarding any shenanigans that turn it hateful.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 7:25 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Discarding (esp being forced) cards that you're sandbagging, giving your opponents new cards, ruining any hope of graveyard shenanigans.

I don't like them personally. I jammed Timetwister in my Mishra deck forever because i have a really, really nice Beta copy and loved the huge draw for combos, but ultimately decided it isn't worth it for me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 8:38 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
Epsilon wrote:
What is unfun about a wheel effect? Disregarding any shenanigans that turn it hateful.

Turn 1 "Mountain, Winds of Change, Go" is never fun. Granted it's a bit of a dick move anyway because it hardly offers any strategic advantage, but strongarming the table into keeping a forced mulligan before they even get started is obnoxious.

In general, its kind of obnoxious to be on the other end of a wheel effect anyway. I get that some people enjoy being wacky and spontaneous, but generally people like to plan ahead with their hands. Wheel effect drops and all your plans for the next turn or two go into the garbage, and suddenly you're at the mercy of whatever your deck wants to give you. Again, a lot of people enjoy that, but just as many don't.

_________________
"Expect nothing but scorn, flattery, and lies. And never turn your back on him." - The Northern Paladin

Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Mortal Combat Dredge
Kamahl & Jeska - Tag Team Voltron


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 9:13 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
JJackson wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Oversold cemetery is a bit of a stretch five creatures in your graveyard to keep it at four to trigger...
That is easier than keeping 3 other players hellbent, especially if you are discarding a card every turn which could easily be the same card that you just picked up from your graveyard if your draw step gave you something better.

Quote:
The bolded statement is the important part here. He looks like he'll be fun but he clearly isn't.
I don't how you think that people are going to be accidentally building him in an unfun manner. If they're building him for power, sure, they might include heavy resource denial. Nobody is going to include Puzzle Box and the rest and think that they're doing it to make sure everybody gets to play a game of Magic.

He is never going to accidentally ruin games. He is not powerful enough to get a ban for pure degeneracy. He has enough potential for non-jerk decks that the possibility of him being used as a DB general is outweighed.

Basically everything about him lines up with the stuff said in RaiRai's Kaalia thread. There are a few obvious cards that are very anti-social to include with him. Their inclusion in the deck is indicative of a player issue, not an issue with the card itself.




Trust me Leovold doesn't register on my top ten list of Unfun commanders, and there is quite bit of competition for those spots

1. Mizzix of the Izmagnus
2. Kaalia of the Vast (As much as I hate Kaalia, I see more Mizzix in play more than her and he is equally if not slightly more infuriating, especially when spells in GY get flashback)
3. Krenko, Mob Boss
4. Heartless Hidetsugu
5. Sliver Overlord
6. Marath, Will of the Wild
7. Oona, Queen of the Fae
8. Maelstrom Wanderer
9. Numot, the Devastator
10. Meren of Clan Nel Toth (Meren is mostly okay, sometimes its hard to work play against if not running graveyard hate in deck, he on here for mostly due to his over abundant presence both online and IRL)

As far brokenness goes, Leovold is built mechanically sound compared to the top four of my Unfun commander list and has an explicit purpose as Draw mechanic and to shut down Nekusar decks as well as preventing others from drawing additional cards.

_________________
Image

RaiRai's Decks of Otherworldlyness:

Unknown Horizons
Bane of the Vast 1.0
Call from Eternity
Twisted Nightmares


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 2:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Allow me to summarize this thread;

Is Leovold probably annoying? Yes. Does he need to be banned? No. Moving on.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 3:04 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
What is unfun about a wheel effect? Disregarding any shenanigans that turn it hateful.


How often do you mulligan? Now imagine if you were not allowed to mulligan at all.
Wheels force you to abandon your carefully crafted hand for a new one that you have no say in. Any planning or plays you were setting up are now gone. The person casting the wheel always has the advantage because they choose to cast it and they know when it's coming.

Wheels.dec is not a deck I like to play against, which is why Nekusaar and Nicol Bolas wheel decks are annoying. If your deck has more than a couple wheel effects then it's going to annoy people.

When I build Leo, I'm planning to fill it with symmetrical draw effects and midrange grind. Take advantage of the second half of the ability by forcing players to give me cards any time they target my things. The best wheel I want in it is memory jar because I get 7 new cards to play with for my turn while my opponents won't be able to use their counter spells.

Epsilon wrote:
Sheldon built a deck around him for SCG including Puzzle Box as well as several wheel effects. He did at least include a disclaimer that some people may not like it... That did not stop him from including the cards.


He also said this:
Quote:
This is a deck I will likely only play with my closest friends, because no one else deserves such irritation.

and this
Quote:
In conclusion, I'll repeat my caveat that this might not be the style of deck for every group. To some extent, it takes playing the game away from the other players (under the right circumstances). If this is the kind of deck which makes your regular group miserable, I'd consider a different Leovold build—perhaps one which still keeps their crazy card draw in check, but doesn't Windfall and make them frequently discard their whole hands. One of the parts of the social contract is making sure that everyone is on the same page. Leovold is in a different book, so definitely check with your friends first.

You are allowed to build a cut throat deck that annoys people, as long as you know those people will be able to handle that kind of thing and you know you're not going to ruin the game for them.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Last edited by specter404 on 2016-Sep-06 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 3:06 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
specter404 wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
What is unfun about a wheel effect? Disregarding any shenanigans that turn it hateful.


How often do you mulligan? Now imagine if you were not allowed to mulligan at all.
Wheels force you to abandon your carefully crafted hand for a new one that you have no say in. Any planning or plays you were setting up are now gone. The person casting the wheel always has the advantage because they choose to cast it and they know when it's coming.

Wheels.dec is not a deck I like to play against, which is why Nekusaar and Nicol Bolas wheel decks are annoying. If your deck has more than a couple wheel effects then it's going to annoy people.

When I build Leo, I'm planning to fill it with symmetrical draw effects and midrange grind. Take advantage of the second half of the ability by forcing players to give me cards any time they target my things. The best wheel I want in it is memory jar because I get 7 new cards to play with for my turn while my opponents won't be able to use their counter spells.


... and I'll still kill you first, because no one messes with my cardboard crack engines.

:twisted: :D

_________________
Xenagos, God of Revels
Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Leovold, Emissary of Trest: a new general worth banning?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-06 3:09 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Allow me to summarize this thread;

Is Leovold probably annoying? Yes. Does he need to be banned? No. Moving on.


Exactly! Let's move onto banning Mizzix of the Izmagnus in Duel Commander

_________________
Image

RaiRai's Decks of Otherworldlyness:

Unknown Horizons
Bane of the Vast 1.0
Call from Eternity
Twisted Nightmares


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 113 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: