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 Post subject: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-30 6:01 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
This was challenging. Leovold is not a traditionally obvious problem commander for EDH, so I chose to take a conservative approach and see if casual groups could adapt. In the past, we've seen unpopular cards generate a lot of outcry, but be handled reasonably well. Powerful cards existing is OK and exploring them responsibly is an essential part of Commander.

This didn't happen with Leovold. Casual groups haven't been able to work around it and problematic play has not dropped off in hoped-for ways. Instead, the primary approach has been to get instant speed removal, run it yourself, or get run over. Ultimately, it seems the card is too perfect - it does everything B/U/G Commander players want to be doing and it does it in a way that makes counterplay difficult. With traditional boogeymen such as Consecrated Sphinx, you're forced to expend a lot of your mana to cast it and will have a challenge protecting it as the turn goes around the table. With Leovold, it has virtual protection built in, negating that disadvantage almost immediately.

Leovold would become only the third multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Leovold is despite such a restriction. Yes, B/U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Leovold is driving B/U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa. That's centralizing in ways we can't ignore, so it's time for Leovold to take a break.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2016-Aug-31 5:02 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
*can't tell if serious or being sarcastic*

Umm Darksteel Mutation anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 4:54 am 
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Joined: 2014-Aug-16 4:42 am
Age: Wyvern
People didn't seem to like this post at the time. Perhaps it's more relevant now?


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 4:04 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
They banned Leovold so that Damia can still be considered a good commander. People stopped playing Damia since well it's too damn expensive for what it does and Leovold is sooo much better. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 10:19 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
They banned Leovold so that Damia can still be considered a good commander. People stopped playing Damia since well it's too damn expensive for what it does and Leovold is sooo much better. :P

I'm pretty sure they banned Leovold because Sheldon lost to it once in a Legacy match.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 11:07 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
cryogen wrote:
Bull wrote:
They banned Leovold so that Damia can still be considered a good commander. People stopped playing Damia since well it's too damn expensive for what it does and Leovold is sooo much better. :P

I'm pretty sure they banned Leovold because Sheldon lost to it once in a Legacy match.


Don't forget "...and it made him cry."

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 Post subject: SHOW STEAL, why the Leovold ban was good for casual play.
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-13 6:35 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Oh hey, I was going to start a thread discussing Leovold (for amusement mostly) and then I saw this.

My primary (sole) playgroup consists of newer players who have competitive and vindictive streaks paired with life-long player who have affinity for prison decks and hard control, so though we don't always play with "winning the game" in mind we have a VERY competitive play experience.

Before Leovold was introduced to our meta the dominant strategy was to desperately try to stabilize against the Atraxa +1/+1 deck (it often won by countering/dodging a wrath or two), deny my Presence of Gond/go infinite plan (usually ate a few spot removal spells), kill every artifact Memnarch played, and then watch somebody get pecked to death over the course of ten turns bad topdecking.

Once Leovold hit he became Archenemy every game and still held a 30% winrate most game nights. Everyone switched out card draw for tutors that got around Leovold, putting in steal and copy effects to get the Leovold for themselves. At the time of his banning we had three Leovold decks in the meta, as the ONLY commander that more than one person played (though that might have more to do with us opening 3 copies).

The biggest hit against him was that all three of the decks ended up playing very similarly, regardless of what else was in the deck. The zombie tribal (+ Leovold), the elf tribal (silly Leovold), and the elvish-piper mega-threat deck all ran tefari's puzzlebox and redraw effects (into the deck so that you couldn't use graveyard recursion) to easily shut down the table.

I don't think Leovold was unbeatable in competitive, but he was definitely top tier competitive and even with ZERO synergy with him in the deck he still did his job. Where's the fun in that?

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 11:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Leo made me sad. He was such an opportunity to do fun stuff with odd-ball cards. But no... everyone had to go the route of locking people out of the game with 0-1 card in hand.

Why not play cool stuff like Arcane Denial? Howling Mine? Prosperity? Flux? Pain's Reward?

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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-18 3:18 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Leo made me sad. He was such an opportunity to do fun stuff with odd-ball cards. But no... everyone had to go the route of locking people out of the game with 0-1 card in hand.

Why not play cool stuff like Arcane Denial? Howling Mine? Prosperity? Flux? Pain's Reward?


What's stopping people from doing both? The "lockout cards" filled 4-5 slots in the deck... Cards aren't banned for "fair synergies" and wanting to play hard locks doesn't stop you from play other "generally fun" cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Leovold is not an obvious problem (Prophet satire)
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-18 3:38 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Leo made me sad. He was such an opportunity to do fun stuff with odd-ball cards. But no... everyone had to go the route of locking people out of the game with 0-1 card in hand.

Why not play cool stuff like Arcane Denial? Howling Mine? Prosperity? Flux? Pain's Reward?


What's stopping people from doing both? The "lockout cards" filled 4-5 slots in the deck... Cards aren't banned for "fair synergies" and wanting to play hard locks doesn't stop you from play other "generally fun" cards.

Nothing is stopping me from playing them... But to play them with Leo was the goal. Now that he's banned that makes it harder.

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