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 Post subject: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 12:34 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
Hi EDH community

wanna open a discussion :)

in what decks is Tolarian Academy to strong?
(blue and artefact... okay, but how much mana can it produce and in witch deck is it to strong? )

im a heavy blue and also artifact player... i also tryed Tolaria Academy and in the most cases it does between 2-3 mana... i think that totally fine compaire to other cards like: Gaea's Cradle, mana vault, mana crypt ect.

or do i miss some specific abuse you wanna prevent?
Just curious what you think about.

kind regards
Kiddyman


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 1:01 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Hello and welcome to the forums!

Here is what Sheldon said at the time of Academy's banning:
http://forum.mtgcommander.net/Forum/vie ... f=1&t=4124
Quote:
super-fast, super-reliable early mana production is dangerous to the format . . . Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana.


Basically, all those ramp decks that use Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Voltaic Key, Metalworker (who was also banned in the past), etc. get an even more explosive start. If your playgroup is fine with a turn 2 Blightsteel Colossus or Kozilek, Butcher of Truth coming down one out of every 10 games (by my very rough estimate) then Academy is probably fine. I think the ability to knock one player out on turn three because they didn't have a 2-mana removal spell that can take out a mega-fatty and they didn't ramp on turn 1 is dangerous because it heavily encourages everyone to play lots of ramp.

Gaea's Cradle, while generally capable of producing a lot more mana than Academy in the mid-game, is less of a threat because it has almost no explosive turn 2 potential.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 1:47 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
intreped wrote:
Gaea's Cradle, while generally capable of producing a lot more mana than Academy in the mid-game, is less of a threat because it has almost no explosive turn 2 potential.

Cradle also requires you to commit creatures to the board to get significant amounts of mana from it, and creatures are the permanent that people specifically build their decks to deal with. Having several Wrath of God effects in a deck is common, but it is pretty rare when people run more than one Creeping Corrosion effect in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 3:44 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
kiddyman wrote:
Hi EDH community

wanna open a discussion :)

in what decks is Tolarian Academy to strong?
(blue and artefact... okay, but how much mana can it produce and in witch deck is it to strong? )

im a heavy blue and also artifact player... i also tryed Tolaria Academy and in the most cases it does between 2-3 mana... i think that totally fine compaire to other cards like: Gaea's Cradle, mana vault, mana crypt ect.

or do i miss some specific abuse you wanna prevent?
Just curious what you think about.

kind regards
Kiddyman


Even I know better to know that unbanning Tolarian Academy in Commander would be devastating, especially with Shadow over Innistrad's Investigate and Kaladesh's Fabricate mechanic present. As many people said, it wouldn't be hard for someone to turn 2 or 3 a Heavy Hitter or play Omniscience which in itself, can really create a huge imbalance early on. This is a scary facet, especially if you were dealing artifact tokens like crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 3:55 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai makes a compelling argument... maybe it is time to come off the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 4:29 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Epsilon wrote:
RaiRai makes a compelling argument... maybe it is time to come off the list.

Well, while I don't know that investigate and fabricate are real culprits keeping TA banned, RaiRai coming out in favor of the ban does not automatically suggest unbanning.

To the OP... if you're only getting 2-3 mana out of an academy, you are not a "heavy" artifact player. A start like artifact land -> Sol Ring -> Signet, turn 2 Academy and you have 7 mana. That's pretty stupid. It's been banned for a long time, but generally I saw it in decks like Sharuum or (shudder) Arcum Daggson, which would use it to fuel out combos very early, or just lock down the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 5:43 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Tolarian Academy is extremely explosive.

Build a Memnarch deck.

Put all 35 0 drop artifacts in it that are legal in the deck (that includes the two artifact lands that are legal in Memnarch). Put in Big Bad Creatures in Blue and Colorless. Pound face.

Not worth the unban.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 5:46 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
It's one of those cards that's only going to get more broken, and do so at a much faster rate than the power level creep of Magic as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 10:22 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Tolarian Academy is extremely explosive.

Build a Memnarch deck.

Put all 35 0 drop artifacts in it that are legal in the deck (that includes the two artifact lands that are legal in Memnarch). Put in Big Bad Creatures in Blue and Colorless. Pound face.

Not worth the unban.

I'm pretty sure such a deck would be unplayably awful. Almost all 0 mana artifacts are completely worthless, or don't synergize with each other.

tarnar wrote:
It's one of those cards that's only going to get more broken, and do so at a much faster rate than the power level creep of Magic as a whole.

I don't think I agree. The biggest boost that artifacts have gotten was Mirrodin. Like, in the past five years, has Academy's power level really risen?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 1:32 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I think you forgot about Scars of Mirrodin... But the biggest thing that breaks the living shit out of TA is mana rocks, and new playable ones are printed virtually every non-standard set as well as even the occasional standard area as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I think you forgot about Scars of Mirrodin... But the biggest thing that breaks the living shit out of TA is mana rocks, and new playable ones are printed virtually every non-standard set as well as even the occasional standard area as well.

You mean the 3 mana ones that tap for 1? I think I'd call those hardly playable, and they don't come to mind as cards that break Academy.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 8:03 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
thanks for all the interesting replays!
here we go..

Someone needs to explain me how to quote proper :) sorry my first forum :P

il try to give my opinion here:
Quote:
@interped
Basically, all those ramp decks that use Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Voltaic Key, Metalworker (who was also banned in the past), etc. get an even more explosive start. If your playgroup is fine with a turn 2 Blightsteel Colossus or Kozilek, Butcher of Truth coming down one out of every 10 games (by my very rough estimate) then Academy is probably fine. I think the ability to knock one player out on turn three because they didn't have a 2-mana removal spell that can take out a mega-fatty and they didn't ramp on turn 1 is dangerous because it heavily encourages everyone to play lots of ramp.

Gaea's Cradle, while generally capable of producing a lot more mana than Academy in the mid-game, is less of a threat because it has almost no explosive turn 2 potential.


i totaly agree turn 2 kills not fun... but there are manny stronger and cheaper ways to go for this (single cards like one example is Bribery.. )

Quote:
@RaiRai
Even I know better to know that unbanning Tolarian Academy in Commander would be devastating, especially with Shadow over Innistrad's Investigate and Kaladesh's Fabricate mechanic present. As many people said, it wouldn't be hard for someone to turn 2 or 3 a Heavy Hitter or play Omniscience which in itself, can really create a huge imbalance early on. This is a scary facet, especially if you were dealing artifact tokens like crazy.


Well in my point of view, here the problem causes cards to ban like Omniscience...
right played this cards are auto win in 99% ... Ban them :)

Quote:
@ Sidthechicken
To the OP... if you're only getting 2-3 mana out of an academy, you are not a "heavy" artifact player. A start like artifact land -> Sol Ring -> Signet, turn 2 Academy and you have 7 mana. That's pretty stupid. It's been banned for a long time, but generally I saw it in decks like Sharuum or (shudder) Arcum Daggson, which would use it to fuel out combos very early, or just lock down the board.


okay, so...
Turn 1
artefact land 1 mana
Sol ring 2 mana
Signet 1 mana
Turn 2
Tolaria: = 3 Mana
(so you need a superb start to get of 2 mana more then you would have with an normal island...)

just play an crypt is easyer ;P

Quote:
@tgambitb

Build a Memnarch deck.

Put all 35 0 drop artifacts in it that are legal in the deck (that includes the two artifact lands that are legal in Memnarch). Put in Big Bad Creatures in Blue and Colorless. Pound face.

Not worth the unban.


35 0 drops... wow... pray that you get this academy otherwise u get killed by the savanna lion next to you ;)


so over all i agree, you can build a specific deck, and under perfect conditions you can pull out an high cost card like omniscience, eldrazi... etc. ... but since in our round we play tolarian, i figuered out that often the case is just 2-3 mana more then a normal land :) so i think there are manny bannable cards before Tolarian Academy


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 10:03 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
kiddyman wrote:
but since in our round we play tolarian, i figuered out that often the case is just 2-3 mana more then a normal land :) so i think there are manny bannable cards before Tolarian Academy

2-3 mana more than a normal land is pretty busted. There is probably a fair way to play it, but the norm is to see that it is a 3-4 mana land starting pretty early, jam the good artifact acceleration (and there is a lot of it), and start dropping 7+ drops on turn 3 or 4 in the games where it shows up. It is a pretty clear case of too much mana too early.

Without even trying hard, here are 13 pieces of very reasonable artifact acceleration, assuming a 3-color deck.

Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Mind Stone
3 on-color Signets
Felwar Stone
Coldsteel Heart
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Commander's Sphere
Thran Dynamo


Last edited by JJackson on 2016-Sep-20 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 10:39 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
JJackson wrote:
kiddyman wrote:
but since in our round we play tolarian, i figuered out that often the case is just 2-3 mana more then a normal land :) so i think there are manny bannable cards before Tolarian Academy

2-3 mana more than a normal land is pretty busted. There is probably a fair way to play it, but the norm is to see that it is a 3-4 mana land starting pretty early, jam the good artifact acceleration (and there is a lot of it), and start dropping 7+ drops on turn 3 or 4 in the games where it shows up. It is a pretty clear case of too much mana too early.

[spoiler=Good artifact acceleration]
Without even trying hard, here are 13 pieces of very reasonable artifact acceleration, assuming a 3-color deck.
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mana Vault
Grim Monolith
Mind's Eye
3 on-color Signets
Felwar Stone
Coldsteel Heart
Worn Powerstone
Coalition Relic
Commander's Sphere
Thran Dynamo[/spoiler]


Agree, but the question is...
how manny decks will profit so much from Tolarian Academy?

if you wanna have from Tolarian Academy 3 extra mana (minus the landrop u use) in turn 3 means you need to have played till turn two at least 4 artifacts so you can drop turn 3 academy and use it for 3 extra mana. (that means you need in your deck... till turn two (10 hand cards) at least 4 artifacts (probably one of them is luckely a land artifact) ...so around 40 Artifacts in your deck... calculate this with the lands you need to play... and the result is few decks where academy is OP.

cheers k


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-19 11:19 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Think of it this way, people would only play Tolarian Academy in a dedicated artifact deck, like Arcum Dagsson or Sharuum the Hegemon. Would you run Gaea's Cradle in a deck with only a handful of creatures?
Here are a few of the playable artifacts that cost 2 or less:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Grim Monolith
Talisman of Dominance
Talisman of Progress
Sensei's Divining Top
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Mox Opal
Mind Stone
Voltaic Key
Anvil of Bogardan
Candelabra of Tawnos
Cursed Totem
Doubling Cube
Felwar Stone
Expedition Map
Genesis Chamber
Grafdigger's Cage
Helm of Awakening

Any one of those is playable on its own. Now imagine that each one gives you an additional blue mana.

I'll tell you the same thing I tell RaiRai when he proposes a ban or unban. The RC gives you the power to house ban or unban whatever you want. Get your playgroup to agree and give it a whirl. But I think you'll find far less dangerous stuff on the list to unban before Academy.

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