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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 3:53 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
That's cute, calling my post useless when you're the one trying to get a clearly broken card unbanned because you want it.

Here's a tip: want us to take you seriously? Actually refute points made against your arguments without dismissing them because you don't like them. Otherwise, we'll likely simply dismiss your arguments the same way you are. However, remember that you need to convince us.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 4:12 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
Marit Lage wrote:
That's cute, calling my post useless when you're the one trying to get a clearly broken card unbanned because you want it.

Here's a tip: want us to take you seriously? Actually refute points made against your arguments without dismissing them because you don't like them. Otherwise, we'll likely simply dismiss your arguments the same way you are. However, remember that you need to convince us.


im glad your talking now about the post not my english skills any more, well done!

i do not try to convince anyone... i was only trying to found profound arguments.
now i see that the arguments are weak and emotional and in the moment there are no more arguments is getting even in an personal offensive level.
Im happy to keep playing mine (my decks are not over tuned and my playgroup is fine with it)

Cheers Kiddyman


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 4:29 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
The title of this thread was a bit misleading and should be:

We should unban Tolarian Academy.

and not

Should we unban Tolarian Academy?


Understand the difference and you'll quickly recognise that this was never really a open discussion in the first place. It's just two sides shouting their points at each other and getting frustrated because each expected one side of the party to see "reason".

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 4:55 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
sir squab wrote:
Just for the record, you're aware that every card I mentioned is on the banlist right? Tolarian Academy is banned because of how busted it is in a deck with at least 50 artifacts.

What? Or because of it being way too intense with an average/above average number of artifacts in a world where some of the best artifacts that go into every deck already make mana as well.

Who plays 50 artifacts, come on. I wouldn't even force myself to play 50 even if Academy were legal.

Quote where someone (important, not you or I) said Academy was banned because it's broken with 50 artifacts.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 5:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-15 5:03 am
Age: Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
sir squab wrote:
Just for the record, you're aware that every card I mentioned is on the banlist right? Tolarian Academy is banned because of how busted it is in a deck with at least 50 artifacts.

What? Or because of it being way too intense with an average/above average number of artifacts in a world where some of the best artifacts that go into every deck already make mana as well.

Who plays 50 artifacts, come on. I wouldn't even force myself to play 50 even if Academy were legal.

Quote where someone (important, not you or I) said Academy was banned because it's broken with 50 artifacts.


More the second bit. I was trying to point out that Tolarian Academy is ban-worthy despite there being decks that Tolarian Academy is useful but not busted in. (By busted I mean ban-worthy - I'm sure both of us could think of quite a few cards that are arguably busted but not ban-worthy. Or at least not banned.)

The number 50 was either an ass-pull or an educated guess from someone with little education on the subject. (I'm not sure I've ever even seen a physical Tolarian Academy.) Or maybe both. Take your pick.

Also offtopic but probably more constructive then the rest of this thread put together: someone earlier mentioned Protean Hulk being busted even in decks not built around it - how it's allegedly busted even when it's just randomly thrown into a green creature deck. Is this true?

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 6:33 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
sir squab wrote:
Also offtopic but probably more constructive then the rest of this thread put together: someone earlier mentioned Protean Hulk being busted even in decks not built around it - how it's allegedly busted even when it's just randomly thrown into a green creature deck. Is this true?

I don't recall who it was, but this was one person's recent experience with it:

Poster: "Hey, Protean Hulk is banned in Commander"
New Guy: "Really? Okay, can I just play with it tonight and I'll fix it later?"
Other Players: "Sure, let's play."

Then the Poster, the person who wasn't even playing Protean Hulk, was the one who abused it. Reanimated it, sac'd it to go get some stuff (including more reanimation and another sac outlet), reanimated and sac'd it a few more times.

The poster came back here and summarily said "Keep that F*#$&er Banned." .... and he wasn't even the one who put it in his deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 7:24 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I posted a link to my Sydri deck that runs 60 artifacts and said you think just maybe Academy would be good in it? I didn't say that was why it was banned though.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 2:17 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
sir squab wrote:
Also offtopic but probably more constructive then the rest of this thread put together: someone earlier mentioned Protean Hulk being busted even in decks not built around it - how it's allegedly busted even when it's just randomly thrown into a green creature deck. Is this true?

I think it is less that it is straight-up busted and more that it makes games miserable. Being cloned/reanimated means it is unlikely you are just going to see it once, and every trigger is painful to resolve. It is a tutor (minorly slow) for multiples (slow) in many possible configurations (I'm-going-to-go-get-a-beer slow).


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 2:23 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
JJackson wrote:
sir squab wrote:
Also offtopic but probably more constructive then the rest of this thread put together: someone earlier mentioned Protean Hulk being busted even in decks not built around it - how it's allegedly busted even when it's just randomly thrown into a green creature deck. Is this true?

I think it is less that it is straight-up busted and more that it makes games miserable. Being cloned/reanimated means it is unlikely you are just going to see it once, and every trigger is painful to resolve. It is a tutor (minorly slow) for multiples (slow) in many possible configurations (I'm-going-to-go-get-a-beer slow).

That sounds really off base to me. I really don't think "being slow to resolve" is a consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 3:19 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
MrCool wrote:
JJackson wrote:
sir squab wrote:
Also offtopic but probably more constructive then the rest of this thread put together: someone earlier mentioned Protean Hulk being busted even in decks not built around it - how it's allegedly busted even when it's just randomly thrown into a green creature deck. Is this true?

I think it is less that it is straight-up busted and more that it makes games miserable. Being cloned/reanimated means it is unlikely you are just going to see it once, and every trigger is painful to resolve. It is a tutor (minorly slow) for multiples (slow) in many possible configurations (I'm-going-to-go-get-a-beer slow).

That sounds really off base to me. I really don't think "being slow to resolve" is a consideration.

Making games miserable is one of the criteria; it falls under "creates undesirable game states." The meat and eggs isn't just slow to resolve; it is gouge your eyes out slow. Unlike something wacky like a Warp World where everybody is engaged in the slow resolution, it is one guy flipping through his deck for 2 minutes. If it happened the once and was done that would be bearable, but it never happens just the once.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 9:07 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman wrote:
Post productive or i will simply ignore.

kiddyman wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
resonable stuff

an other useless post....
by productive i mean: not talking since 10 posts about bullshit none cares ... including me!

kiddyman wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
I think he's a bot at this point. Or an prepubescent adolescent or something. Even people who have problems with English are better speakers than this.

just an other useless post....but coman, you sound really bored and is friday :)


You're not very good at ignoring unproductive posts. Perhaps your understanding of the word ignore is not the same as ours. In German you're looking for überhören, in French méconnaître.

It's a shame you're from Switzerland, I liked Switzerland.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 9:37 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
kiddyman wrote:
Post productive or i will simply ignore.

kiddyman wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
resonable stuff

an other useless post....
by productive i mean: not talking since 10 posts about bullshit none cares ... including me!

kiddyman wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
I think he's a bot at this point. Or an prepubescent adolescent or something. Even people who have problems with English are better speakers than this.

just an other useless post....but coman, you sound really bored and is friday :)


You're not very good at ignoring unproductive posts. Perhaps your understanding of the word ignore is not the same as ours. In German you're looking for überhören, in French méconnaître.

It's a shame you're from Switzerland, I liked Switzerland.


just an other usless post..
don't understand why you even here reading and comenting... you must be bored as hell


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 10:40 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman,

If I may summarize this thread, you have requested that Tolarian Academy be looked at because it is, in your opinion, not broken outside of a broken deck. Sheldon (a member of the Rules Committee) has said it isn't getting unbanned, and a number of other users have explained why it is broken and should remain banned. A few users have also provided counterpoints for why it should be unbanned. So far, the majority of your contribution has been dismissive and cherry-picked posts, or trolling with poorly constructed posts. I say trolling because I will not give you the benefit of the doubt with "English is a second language", since you appear to enjoy the way you post and the reactions it causes.

So my question to you (and really to everyone) is this: is there any legitimate reason why this thread should continue or can it die with a shred of dignity?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 11:37 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
This thread's dignity was ripped from it by page five.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-30 11:44 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
Sheldon wrote:
Response to original poster:

Short version: No.

Slightly longer version: No, but thanks for asking.



hi Sheldon, first thanks four this lovely format!
one of the best things happened in magic!
I love EDH!

so finish with the flowers ;)

since some of the guys refer to your post i would like to go 1 step closer.
quotes of you:

1. The watchword of the Rule’s Committee’s vision of the format is ‘interactive.’ We’d like to foster an environment where ridiculous things happen, but that everyone playing has a chance to do them. Early, reliable, hyper-production of mana often leads to a single player playing by himself and others watching, and that’s not what we want for EDH.

2. Tolarian Academy, while not quite as explosive as the Rofellos and Channel, fuels easy early-game super-production of mana.

first of all i totally agree with this decision!
i wanted to find what kind of decks would abuse TA in EDH.

so i searched in the web for decks where this would the case, my search was unsuccessful :/

then i asked in this forum for decks that would support the "reason of ban = early a lot of mana)
As you can see in the posts there are many cards that are totaly supporting it (soul ring and friend)
the output was that there are around 20 of those "by it self" good cards after me and others did some calculations the result was with 20 Artifact is not OP at all. (see calculation in post before)

the artifact heaviest deck was from cryogen:
cryogen wrote:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/603776-sydri-galvanic-genius

Here ya go. 60 artifacts out of a 100 card deck, that wins off of numerous combos or Blightsteel Colossus. Tolarian Academy wasn't ever a thought in the deck, so you can't claim that I was building around abusing it.


i think this is a really good deck example (not just a lot of artifact but more really cheap artifacts)
and also some big blight steel to cast out.

for this specific deck (or decktype) i calculatet an average start as followed:
(i calculate with 40 Artifacts for early game, all artifacts in this deck from 0-3 mana including land-artifact, i do not calculate with starts like you draw all in first hand... sol ring and mana crypt and mana vault together)

I was thinking till turn 4 is fair time for playing Academy and go off with mana:
- Till Turn 3 you have a chance of 63% that you have 4 Artifact (including a mana rocks ) you play them all out
- Turn 4 you play now or before Tolarian Academy (4 mana) and still have a mana rock (1 mana) and 3 lands total: 8 mana in turn 4 in a normal case

ofcorse if you draw "crypt and friends" it looks different, probably 9-10 mana in turn 4
but to be fair also when you draw not suboptimal (to much 3cost artifact) results 6-7 mana in turn 4

and if we are talking about 3 turn (1 rock, 1-2 other artifacts 2 lands and tolaria = turn 3 between 5-6 mana )

aging if you draw "crypt and friends" it looks different, probably 7-8 mana in turn 3
but to be fair also when you draw not suboptimal (to much 3cost artifact) results 4-5 mana in turn 3

side note:
the chance that you get 2 artifact =< 2 mana cost and a mana rock with mana cost =< 2
till turn 2 is only 26%
till turn 3 the chance is 32%
till turn 4 the chance is 38%


so now to my question:
- is this the kind of decks why Tolaria is banned or do i miss somthing significant?

cheers
kiddyman


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