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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 12:36 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Kiddyman, I think you misunderstand what OP means if you think it isn't OP with 20 artifacts. Power is more than just 'How much upside might this have?' It also includes 'What is the cost of running this?' With 20 artifacts, which is probably the fewest you're going to see in a deck that has Academy, there is almost no downside to it. You have a trivial chance of no artifact before you run out of other lands to play. Look at all of the other lands that tap for 2 mana or more. They have serious downsides like hurting you badly, having to be sacrificed, not providing mana ever until the mid game, and requiring lands to be sacrificed or returned to hand when they enter the battlefield. Many of those are still played in a reasonable number of decks. A land that taps for UU regularly, often more, with almost no downside is definitely OP.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 7:04 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
JJackson i agree with you, double uu for a land is superb!
but i think that is not the reason for the ban.
the reason is, quote Sheldon: "easy early-game super-production of mana"

for example in my playgroup a friend play mono green elf deck with "Gaea's Cradle"
it taps always for GG+ and much more :) but it's fine because its a green deck and the card is just make for.

cheers Kiddyman


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 7:16 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman wrote:
and if we are talking about 3 turn (1 rock, 1-2 other artifacts 2 lands and tolaria = turn 3 between 5-6 mana )

aging if you draw "crypt and friends" it looks different, probably 7-8 mana in turn 3
but to be fair also when you draw not suboptimal (to much 3cost artifact) results 4-5 mana in turn 3

The cheapest and most common artifacts are mana rocks. So 5-6 can often (often enough to warrant a ban, THIS IS THE POINT YOU ARE MISSING), and then often it's like 10.

Why exactly do you think a land that even sometimes doubles your mana on turn 3 is okay? That is what you are really arguing for, is it not? Your fair-ISH cases are still stupidly good.

Academy is not really okay in a format where jamming a handful of 0-2/3 cmc mana rocks is commonplace.

A Academy in an opening hand with 1-2 other artifacts is just really, really strong. It doesn't matter if being a singleton means it shows in a few games out of a handful, that's still dumb.

You keep asking what point you are missing, and that is it. No amount of garbage math from you is going to change that.

kiddyman wrote:
JJackson i agree with you, double uu for a land is superb!
but i think that is not the reason for the ban.
the reason is, quote Sheldon: "easy early-game super-production of mana"

for example in my playgroup a friend play mono green elf deck with "Gaea's Cradle"
it taps always for GG+ and much more :) but it's fine because its a green deck and the card is just make for.

cheers Kiddyman


Well okay, go ahead and continue to miss the point then. This was covered already, you know. Now you're just being ignorant knob by choice?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-01 7:26 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Now it's just name-calling, cherry picking & selectively ignoring what suits and there's little really new here.

I'm going to close this for 24h with a request that, when it re-opens, you actually discuss the topic rather than the posters.

If you've nothing to say, don't say it.

Thanks.

EDIT: So, we're open for business again. Play nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-02 11:18 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman wrote:
for example in my playgroup a friend play mono green elf deck with "Gaea's Cradle"
it taps always for GG+ and much more :) but it's fine because its a green deck and the card is just make for.
This is not an argument to unban TA. It is a an argument to ban Cradle.

The things that have long saved Cradle from the chopping block are:
1) Wrath of God effects are common, so resetting Cradle to 0 mana actually happens sort of a lot. (Certainly far more than Academy resets to 0.)
2) Most mana dorks don't have haste, and no 0-mana creatures are playable in EDH. That means there is no Cradle equivalent to turn 1: Mox Opal, TA, Sol Ring, Mindstone. (And those types of starts are both very problematic and too common for TA to be legal. This is not an optimized super-start. This is just a moderately above-average hand for an artifact deck with TA in it.)

So, yes. Cradle is a very powerful card.
But, no. It is not more powerful than TA, nor does it make TA unworthy of a ban.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 1:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Can we just leave this locked? Locking it for 24 hours over a weekend when fewer people are even on obviously didn't do anything. He's just going to come back and cherry pick the moderately insulting parts of responses and ignore the parts the have proven him wrong as he's done for the last hundred posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 2:16 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Or, we can just ignore him.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 2:19 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Epsilon wrote:
Can we just leave this locked? Locking it for 24 hours over a weekend when fewer people are even on obviously didn't do anything. He's just going to come back and cherry pick the moderately insulting parts of responses and ignore the parts the have proven him wrong as he's done for the last hundred posts.


I believe in giving everyone a chance to take a step back to take stock and come back if they deem necessary. He hasn't posted again since the unlock. If he comes back just to ignore whatever he doesn't agree with rather than accepting that there are other valid opinions in this debate and take those on board, we'll look at it at that point.

It's also a chance for others to think about maybe not posting in here if it's just to call people "ignorant knobs" and wade in with their own version of "No, YOU'RE wrong!".

The absolute best response to this thread is just not post in here any more unless you have a compelling arguament for or against unbanning TA. IMO there's no more uncovered ground but that's not a reason to stop people showing that they can post without being keyboard warriors if they do have something to say. I may be wrong after all (it's happened before), maybe TA should be unbanned and locking for good may prevent that one convincing key arguament from ever getting aired.

Maybe.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 7:44 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Can we just leave this locked? Locking it for 24 hours over a weekend when fewer people are even on obviously didn't do anything. He's just going to come back and cherry pick the moderately insulting parts of responses and ignore the parts the have proven him wrong as he's done for the last hundred posts.


I believe in giving everyone a chance to take a step back to take stock and come back if they deem necessary. He hasn't posted again since the unlock. If he comes back just to ignore whatever he doesn't agree with rather than accepting that there are other valid opinions in this debate and take those on board, we'll look at it at that point.

It's also a chance for others to think about maybe not posting in here if it's just to call people "ignorant knobs" and wade in with their own version of "No, YOU'RE wrong!".

The absolute best response to this thread is just not post in here any more unless you have a compelling arguament for or against unbanning TA. IMO there's no more uncovered ground but that's not a reason to stop people showing that they can post without being keyboard warriors if they do have something to say. I may be wrong after all (it's happened before), maybe TA should be unbanned and locking for good may prevent that one convincing key arguament from ever getting aired.

Maybe.


Dear Mtgcommander staff & posters

I invested a lot of time here... and my last post was a clear question to sheldon
i hoped for an clear awnser. not a mute!

I understand some guys totally disagree with my idea....or believe in my cherry picking or ignorant.
I accept that! but i do also not agree with some of there way of behaving or arguments...
but at least i respect them!

@zimagic: if you run a forum and want people open minded and to the engagement you disagree or don't like you force to shut up, thats really poor and reminds me on a political regime not an forum for people that loving a card game and share ideas!

since i see how this forum here works, im not annymore motivated to bring up or defend my ideas.

i wish you happy gaming
Cheers Kiddyman


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 8:35 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
You brought an idea, and literally everyone told you it's a bad one. Not by prejudice, but by assessing your arguments and dismissing them as flawed. Maybe you should entertain the thought that your idea really wasn't that good.

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In my late teens I was a Spike.
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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 8:51 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
*sigh* Kiddyman, PM sent. Feel free to reply to me there.

For anyone who's still into this discussion, here's some interesting reading, the previous 5 topics that touched on the banning and potential unbanning of Tolarian Academy:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4139&p=50858&hilit=tolarian#p50858
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4229&p=52341&hilit=tolarian#p52341
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15298&p=149996&hilit=tolarian#p149996
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16120&p=167264&hilit=tolarian#p167264
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18360&p=223026&hilit=tolarian#p223026

I also think it's important to keep in mind something that papa_funk mentionned in (surprise, surprise) "A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy" back in 2010

papa_funk wrote:
EDH is a format where, if you want to break it, you can break it, and combating that would require large banlist changes and nuking a bunch of cards have fun applications (which we finally had to do, with great regret, with the Hulk). There's minimal interest in doing that, and people who don't understand that are going to keep hitting their head against the wall.


The opposite is true in that, if you try really hard to not break it, you can make cases for a lot of cards being acceptable, cards that are clearly OP for the average playgroup. Tolarian Academy is OP more often than not but there are cases where I'm sure it's ok in certain decks. The question you have to ask is whether, after watering down the concentration of artifacts in a deck to a level where TA is no longer accidently OP, where is the interest in running Tolarian Academy at all?

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-03 9:41 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
*sigh* Kiddyman, PM sent. Feel free to reply to me there.

For anyone who's still into this discussion, here's some interesting reading, the previous 5 topics that touched on the banning and potential unbanning of Tolarian Academy:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4139&p=50858&hilit=tolarian#p50858
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4229&p=52341&hilit=tolarian#p52341
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15298&p=149996&hilit=tolarian#p149996
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16120&p=167264&hilit=tolarian#p167264
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18360&p=223026&hilit=tolarian#p223026

I also think it's important to keep in mind something that papa_funk mentionned in (surprise, surprise) "A Healthy Discussion on Tolarian Academy" back in 2010

papa_funk wrote:
EDH is a format where, if you want to break it, you can break it, and combating that would require large banlist changes and nuking a bunch of cards have fun applications (which we finally had to do, with great regret, with the Hulk). There's minimal interest in doing that, and people who don't understand that are going to keep hitting their head against the wall.


The opposite is true in that, if you try really hard to not break it, you can make cases for a lot of cards being acceptable, cards that are clearly OP for the average playgroup. Tolarian Academy is OP more often than not but there are cases where I'm sure it's ok in certain decks. The question you have to ask is whether, after watering down the concentration of artifacts in a deck to a level where TA is no longer accidently OP, where is the interest in running Tolarian Academy at all?



Hi Zimagic

thank you really much for this helpful post list!
amazing... im not the only ;)

i think there is enough thought invested!
i will have a good read

cheers Kiddyman


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 12:17 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Antis wrote:
You brought an idea, and literally everyone told you it's a bad one. Not by prejudice, but by assessing your arguments and dismissing them as flawed. Maybe you should entertain the thought that your idea really wasn't that good.


It is not fair to say everyone... I agree that most feel TA is worthy of a ban, but I have played it off and on for several years in a few decks without complaint. The one I am running now is intentionally watered down, but very fun. That is how I like to EDH.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 12:28 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Antis wrote:
You brought an idea, and literally everyone told you it's a bad one. Not by prejudice, but by assessing your arguments and dismissing them as flawed. Maybe you should entertain the thought that your idea really wasn't that good.


It is not fair to say everyone... I agree that most feel TA is worthy of a ban, but I have played it off and on for several years in a few decks without complaint. The one I am running now is intentionally watered down, but very fun. That is how I like to EDH.


thx ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-04 1:46 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Inkeyes22 wrote:
Antis wrote:
You brought an idea, and literally everyone told you it's a bad one. Not by prejudice, but by assessing your arguments and dismissing them as flawed. Maybe you should entertain the thought that your idea really wasn't that good.


It is not fair to say everyone... I agree that most feel TA is worthy of a ban, but I have played it off and on for several years in a few decks without complaint. The one I am running now is intentionally watered down, but very fun. That is how I like to EDH.


So your argument is that it's fine because you've been playing it without incident in intentionally nerfed decks?

This was literally just addressed in zimagics post...

Quote:
The opposite is true in that, if you try really hard to not break it, you can make cases for a lot of cards being acceptable, cards that are clearly OP for the average playgroup. Tolarian Academy is OP more often than not but there are cases where I'm sure it's ok in certain decks. The question you have to ask is whether, after watering down the concentration of artifacts in a deck to a level where TA is no longer accidently OP, where is the interest in running Tolarian Academy at all?


If you're intentionally nerfing your deck just to play the card, that's confirming that the card is too powerful to be played unrestricted. If it's not acceptable to play the card unrestricted, there's a very good argument that the card is not acceptable to play at all.


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