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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 2:17 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
d0su wrote:
And remember: I'm playing devil's advocate here. At the end of the day I would prefer Academy stays banned, along with Gaea's Cradle, Mana Crypt, etc. I feel like the distinction between all of these is more an after-the-fact play on semantics, with the goal of keeping the ban list from growing by a few cards.


You, sir, are a dangerous rogue element and a subversive!

We know your agenda: No Fun Things for Anyone, Ever!

You won't be happy till the banned list is the bloated corpse lying atop the midden heap of the extinct format known as Commander, played only by shadowy cabals beside sun-kissed swimming-pools in Florida.

Also, I have a Cradle, Crypt & this:

Epsilon wrote:
TLDR; I traded all my Academy's away so it needs to stay banned.


Meddling kids!!

PS: Welcome back btw., d0su. A longer hiatus than usual this time.

Sad that I feel the need to point out that this is not a serious post in the slightest (well, apart from the sentiment at the end) but that's the forum these days.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 2:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mana Geyser is not banned when Academy is for the same reason that Ancestral Recall is banned but Jace's Ingenuity isn't.

There are things that are fine to do for 5 mana that are not fine for 0-1.

Also both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt absolutely are game-breaking enough to be bannable. BUT this is the Sol Ring format. Just like Brainstorm is probably too good to be legal in Legacy, but it's the card that defines the format, you kind of have to accept that as the nature of the beast.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 2:58 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
@epsilon

well... lets challenge your statement!
you are talking about 15 Artifacts... thats all 6,6 cards one artifact from the 99.
that means in a lot of cases u not even have mana out of it... :(
and in normal case you get 1 mana...
and on turn 7 u get your secound mana... and so on.

dosen't really sounds banneble dosen it?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 3:12 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
kiddyman wrote:
@epsilon

well... lets challenge your statement!
you are talking about 15 Artifacts... thats all 6,6 cards one artifact from the 99.
that means in a lot of cases u not even have mana out of it... :(
and in normal case you get 1 mana...
and on turn 7 u get your secound mana... and so on.

dosen't really sounds banneble dosen it?

That is his worst case scenario from not trying to push the power of it. If you are running 15 artifacts (and who would run that few in a deck with Academy?), your expected downside is that you have one more land subject to nonbasic hate.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 3:25 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
yes but nobody does a deck arround academy... but rather academy gets put in an artifact deck!

now with this fact...:
1. make a calculation how much artifact you need in a deck that pushes the power of your academy hard
2. think how much of these artifact are in the early mana curve and pushes early game
3. what decks will rock with it?
4. is academy still on bannlist? ;P


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 3:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman wrote:
@epsilon

well... lets challenge your statement!
you are talking about 15 Artifacts... thats all 6,6 cards one artifact from the 99.
that means in a lot of cases u not even have mana out of it... :(
and in normal case you get 1 mana...
and on turn 7 u get your secound mana... and so on.

dosen't really sounds banneble dosen it?


As I said, you'd only need 15+ artifacts to allow it to tap for mana reliably. That's not a lot of artifacts. All that means is there's a good chunk of decks that could run it with no downside and no build around. Most the decks I have start with between 10-15 artifacts anyway. So I could throw it in almost any of them and it would be at least as good as a basic island. ~13 is the sweet spot to reliably have one of the given type in your hand on turn 1 so if you're playing more than 15 of a type, it's always tapping for at least one barring removal.

Of course, then there are decks that are slightly more focused on artifacts without even needing to be heavily focused on artifacts. My Ephara deck as an example has ~13 "artifacts" in it but then it also has sad robot, burnished hart, duplicant and such which fall into the creature category while still upping the artifact count. Plus Bident and Spear which fall more in the enchantment category. Then it has the three artifact lands in the colors. Then it has a Tezzeret and trinket mage package and a Thada Adel. Even though it only has around 20 "artifacts" in the deck, there's a VERY good chance I'll have more than "two artifacts by turn 7". The deck plays mox opal and has enabled it on turn 1-2 more than once. Card draw is a thing. It's a far more reliable and relevant thing when fueled by artifact mana. The deck already exploits Minamo/Nykthos. It would be FAR easier to exploit Academy/Minamo. The deck would be vastly different if Academy were legal. Certainly tapping for 3 on turn 2 is bannable.

That's still not even an "artifact deck" at this point. Once you start looking at Memnarch or other actual artifact decks it just becomes straight busted. If tapping for 3 on turn 2 is bad enough to be bannable. A full artifact deck that wanted to exploit this would be able to tap it for 3+ on turn 1. Now throw in the new Paradoxical Outcome. Turn 2 Emrakul is totally legit right?


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 3:45 am 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-09 8:55 pm
Age: Drake
zimagic wrote:
d0su wrote:
And remember: I'm playing devil's advocate here. At the end of the day I would prefer Academy stays banned, along with Gaea's Cradle, Mana Crypt, etc. I feel like the distinction between all of these is more an after-the-fact play on semantics, with the goal of keeping the ban list from growing by a few cards.


You, sir, are a dangerous rogue element and a subversive!

We know your agenda: No Fun Things for Anyone, Ever!

You won't be happy till the banned list is the bloated corpse lying atop the midden heap of the extinct format known as Commander, played only by shadowy cabals beside sun-kissed swimming-pools in Florida.
Oh no, I've been found out! Like Mirrodin after the onset of Phyrexians, this format will be twisted beyond recognition as all is assimilated into the Great Work.

This isn't even my final form.

Good to see you too.

crokaycete wrote:
Mana Geyser is not banned when Academy is for the same reason that Ancestral Recall is banned but Jace's Ingenuity isn't.

There are things that are fine to do for 5 mana that are not fine for 0-1.

Also both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt absolutely are game-breaking enough to be bannable. BUT this is the Sol Ring format. Just like Brainstorm is probably too good to be legal in Legacy, but it's the card that defines the format, you kind of have to accept that as the nature of the beast.
Well, really it's more like Oath of Druids versus Tooth and Nail, since the more expensive card has fewer deckbuilding requirements and a bigger immediate payoff. It's not a simple Lightning Bolt vs. Searing Spear thing.

But I get what you are saying. I just disagree -- we have gotten rid of sacred cows before (e.g. Rofellos) because the negative impacts outweighed the novelty. With Sol Rings no longer the old-school $15 obscurities, but now available in the modern frame at $1.50/ea, I think the novelty has long expired. But alas, this is a thread about Academy.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 7:50 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Marit Lage wrote:
If you don't think Tolarian Academy is degenerate, you're doing it wrong.

This.

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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 8:14 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
well so far i here not one example of one single ordinary deck that abuse academy.
give me some decklist then i make u the maths :)

start with memnarch, because think he is the most dedicated to abuse :)
after memnarch...sharum? and then?

im curious, wanna see a deck that would explode early with acadamy.
and play on tun 2 big eldrazi.

thanks for helping me.

cheers kid


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 11:29 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kiddyman wrote:
im curious, wanna see a deck that would explode early with acadamy.
and play on tun 2 big eldrazi.

Why? What would that accomplish?

You certainly seem to be cherry picking what you pay attention to.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-23 11:54 pm 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
since the argue came 3 times on topic...(secound turn eldrazis...early op abuse of Academy...)
i wanna see what decks are able to do so, not really cherry picking isn't it?

im just challanging this statement.
looking forward for the decks :)

cheers k


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-24 3:05 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
kiddyman wrote:
well so far i here not one example of one single ordinary deck that abuse academy.
give me some decklist then i make u the maths :)

start with memnarch, because think he is the most dedicated to abuse :)
after memnarch...sharum? and then?

im curious, wanna see a deck that would explode early with acadamy.
and play on tun 2 big eldrazi.

thanks for helping me.

cheers kid


T1 Darksteel Citadel. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, T2 Tolarian Academy for 5 mana, tap the artifacts for 7 more, tap the citadel for the last mana, Cast Emrakul, The Promised End.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-24 4:58 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
tgambitg wrote:
kiddyman wrote:
well so far i here not one example of one single ordinary deck that abuse academy.
give me some decklist then i make u the maths :)

start with memnarch, because think he is the most dedicated to abuse :)
after memnarch...sharum? and then?

im curious, wanna see a deck that would explode early with acadamy.
and play on tun 2 big eldrazi.

thanks for helping me.

cheers kid


T1 Darksteel Citadel. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, T2 Tolarian Academy for 5 mana, tap the artifacts for 7 more, tap the citadel for the last mana, Cast Emrakul, The Promised End.

You're slow, Gambit. The goalpost has been moved to challenging the consistency of a deck's ability to kick out T2 eldrazi.


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-24 5:38 am 

Joined: 2016-Sep-19 12:15 am
Age: Drake
JJackson wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
kiddyman wrote:
well so far i here not one example of one single ordinary deck that abuse academy.
give me some decklist then i make u the maths :)

start with memnarch, because think he is the most dedicated to abuse :)
after memnarch...sharum? and then?

im curious, wanna see a deck that would explode early with acadamy.
and play on tun 2 big eldrazi.

thanks for helping me.

cheers kid


T1 Darksteel Citadel. Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, T2 Tolarian Academy for 5 mana, tap the artifacts for 7 more, tap the citadel for the last mana, Cast Emrakul, The Promised End.

You're slow, Gambit. The goalpost has been moved to challenging the consistency of a deck's ability to kick out T2 eldrazi.


haha ur kidding me ? seriously... thats the reason why we unbanned tolarian academy...
ur example is a joke!

first turn 6 mana... coman i want an realistic deck and start...
so far no awnser.

Im simply asking for the deck where academy goes off...
if there are no decks... there is no reason.

cheers kid


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 Post subject: Re: Should we unban Tolarian Academy?
AgePosted: 2016-Sep-24 6:12 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
kiddyman wrote:
since the argue came 3 times on topic...(secound turn eldrazis...early op abuse of Academy...)
i wanna see what decks are able to do so, not really cherry picking isn't it?

im just challanging this statement.
looking forward for the decks :)

cheers k

Say, maybe I missed it in the last four pages somewhere...

Have you provided your casual decklist you play with? I thought maybe you'd have shared it as an example of how the average player utilizes it.

Cheers kid.

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Last edited by Segrus on 2016-Sep-24 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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