Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Jul-17 8:34 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 2:20 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I could have sworn I saw years ago that Shahrazad was unbanned. I did some searching and found a rules exemption was removed in 2007 and then it was outright banned in 2011 but no unban notice. I've been wrong before, however, I took a look at the front page Banned List and I don't see it listed there. Gatherer shows it as banned in Commander.

Is the front page list incorrect and my memory was modified by cyborg alien mutants from Atlantis? Or, am I correct in that it was unbanned and Gatherer is incorrect?

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 2:32 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
EDH is played with Vintage legal cards. Shahrazad is not Vintage legal, ergo it is not EDH legal.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 4:16 am 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Sid the Chicken wrote:
EDH is played with Vintage legal cards. Shahrazad is not Vintage legal, ergo it is not EDH legal.


Sid is correct.

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 8:53 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
ah hah! Got it! Didn't realize it was banned in Vintage too.

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 1:23 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
scatteredsun wrote:
ah hah! Got it! Didn't realize it was banned in Vintage too.


It makes sense if you think about it - can you picture a tournament supporting sub-games? The logistics alone would be a nightmare finding somewhere to play the subgame in a crowded room. Plus there would be protection of your property to consider. And of course time. Shahrazad is one of the most, perhaps THE most, time-wasting cards ever printed.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 9:31 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
scatteredsun wrote:
ah hah! Got it! Didn't realize it was banned in Vintage too.


It makes sense if you think about it - can you picture a tournament supporting sub-games? The logistics alone would be a nightmare finding somewhere to play the subgame in a crowded room. Plus there would be protection of your property to consider. And of course time. Shahrazad is one of the most, perhaps THE most, time-wasting cards ever printed.


Enter The Dungeon solves the space problem nicely.

_________________
Deepglow Skate
Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 10:03 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Enter The Dungeon solves the space problem nicely.

Until you cast a second one anyways...

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-11 11:31 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
finding somewhere to play the subgame in a crowded room.
I was pretty sure this was a troll post until I saw you mention time (which is the real reason) afterwards with no obvious "now I'm done trolling" transition. So now I'm not sure.

In case you or others think this is a real problem, you don't have to walk away from your table to play a sub-game. You just take the cards in each zone, and put them aside in a way that prevents confusion. For example, Hand on the bottom face-down, Graveyard next face-up, Exile next face-down, Battlefield next face-up, Shahrazad on top. (Shahrazad will be the only thing on the Stack as it resolves because it's a sorcery, so no need to track anything else.) Now you have your entire normal table to work with minus a single pile for each player. Even in the case of multiple copies of Shahrazad, you just put the outer subgame pile on top of the main game pile, rotated 90 degrees, creating a very physically compact and easy to follow "Shahrazad stack." So none of the physical operations here are challenging. Just the huge amount of time it takes and the fact that almost every Vintage tournament would have that one troll player who would pull this shit.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-12 12:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
I dug around and found the vintage banning post.

Yeah, Forked Shahrazad and subgames nested in subgames would be a nightmare!!

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-12 1:05 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
scatteredsun wrote:
I could have sworn I saw years ago that Shahrazad was unbanned. I did some searching and found a rules exemption was removed in 2007 and then it was outright banned in 2011 but no unban notice. I've been wrong before, however, I took a look at the front page Banned List and I don't see it listed there. Gatherer shows it as banned in Commander.

Is the front page list incorrect and my memory was modified by cyborg alien mutants from Atlantis? Or, am I correct in that it was unbanned and Gatherer is incorrect?

The exception that was removed was the one that made Shahrazad legal in the format.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-12 12:08 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
finding somewhere to play the subgame in a crowded room.
I was pretty sure this was a troll post until I saw you mention time (which is the real reason) afterwards with no obvious "now I'm done trolling" transition. So now I'm not sure.

In case you or others think this is a real problem, you don't have to walk away from your table to play a sub-game. You just take the cards in each zone, and put them aside in a way that prevents confusion. For example, Hand on the bottom face-down, Graveyard next face-up, Exile next face-down, Battlefield next face-up, Shahrazad on top. (Shahrazad will be the only thing on the Stack as it resolves because it's a sorcery, so no need to track anything else.) Now you have your entire normal table to work with minus a single pile for each player. Even in the case of multiple copies of Shahrazad, you just put the outer subgame pile on top of the main game pile, rotated 90 degrees, creating a very physically compact and easy to follow "Shahrazad stack." So none of the physical operations here are challenging. Just the huge amount of time it takes and the fact that almost every Vintage tournament would have that one troll player who would pull this shit.

I'm not sure which tournaments you've been playing, but most big tournaments I've been to don't have 1 average sized playmat space per person.

Furthermore, the process of setting up a Shahrazad pile works in theory providing everyone involved is behaving in a cooperative way. However, from a judge's perspective, it is wholely inadequate. The potential for arguments about what was in each pile, a card moving from one face up pile to the next, and the potential for the pile to be knocked at any point during the subgame, resulting in an irreparable game state. The time spent playing the subgames pales in comparison to the time and effort spent ensuring you are able to restore the original game state, plus resolving the many disagreements about it.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-13 3:53 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Furthermore, the process of setting up a Shahrazad pile works in theory providing everyone involved is behaving in a cooperative way. However, from a judge's perspective, it is wholely inadequate.
Speaking as a level 3 judge, I would be 99% worried about the time added by successfully resolving a Sharhazad, 1% worried about things going wrong due the adequacy of using stacks of cards to physically operate a Sharhazad resolution, and 0% worried about the card requiring extra play space.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-13 7:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
crokaycete wrote:
Speaking as a level 3 judge, I would be 99% worried about the time added by successfully resolving a Sharhazad, 1% worried about things going wrong due the adequacy of using stacks of cards to physically operate a Sharhazad resolution, and 0% worried about the card requiring extra play space.
So the ultimate troll is to build a Shahrazad deck that's heavy on Manifest effects and/or Morph cards and play it in a tournament you're running?

_________________
"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-13 7:40 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This truly would be an epic level troll, especially given that Sharhazad isn't legal in any tournament format.

_________________
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Cryocerete (sp?)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Shahrazad status
AgePosted: 2016-Oct-13 8:11 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Speaking as a level 3 judge, I would be 99% worried about the time added by successfully resolving a Sharhazad, 1% worried about things going wrong due the adequacy of using stacks of cards to physically operate a Sharhazad resolution, and 0% worried about the card requiring extra play space.

Interesting, in a format with miracles, games go to time fairly often anyway. I haven't judged any large tournaments, though played in a couple, but even judging our local game day and prerelease, any time there is more than around 30 people it's a pretty for gone conclusion that someone's game is going to time. I dont think there was one round at GP Sydney day 1 that didnt go to time.

The magic subgame doesn't give you a time extension, so how is this really a bigger drain on time assuming everything goes to plan with resolving the spell?

The part I see as most likely to add time to your tournament is where you have to resolve disputes about game state, which you would have to give time extensions for.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 70 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron