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 Post subject: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-30 9:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I recently learned that the new version of o-ring effects like grasp of fate and banisher priest are able to track commanders to the command zone (as long as they are not recast). For those interested in the relevant rule it is CR603.6.

I thought I would share my recently gained knowledge, many probably already knew it but for those like me that didn't it might be helpful to know.

What rules things have you recently learned about?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-30 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
A 'thank you' to Sid the Chicken for this one (which I probably knew but never really considered):

When resolving Living Death/Living End/Scrap Mastery, 'when this permanent dies' triggers are put on the stack, but don't have targets chosen until the new permanents are on the battlefield. (I will likely use this with Ashen Rider/Archon of Justice to exile what opponents get back.)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Nov-30 11:53 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Jeyal wrote:
A 'thank you' to Sid the Chicken for this one (which I probably knew but never really considered):

When resolving Living Death/Living End/Scrap Mastery, 'when this permanent dies' triggers are put on the stack, but don't have targets chosen until the new permanents are on the battlefield. (I will likely use this with Ashen Rider/Archon of Justice to exile what opponents get back.)

Gonna nitpick you a bit there for clarity - it's not that they go on the stack but don't have targets yet. They don't even go on the stack until the spell is finished resolving.

Comp rules wrote:
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that’s not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.” The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.

Nobody gets priority during the resolution of the spell, so the trigger event happens during the spell, but they don't actually go on the stack until it's completely resolved, at which point the board is in its post living death state. Same with something like Hypergenesis - I've had to explain to people that they don't resolve their ETB triggers in the middle, but instead wait until its all done.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-01 4:53 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
Today I relearned, well, that.

Thanks for the clarification!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-02 2:03 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
I recently learned that the new version of o-ring effects like grasp of fate and banisher priest are able to track commanders to the command zone (as long as they are not recast). For those interested in the relevant rule it is CR603.6.

I thought I would share my recently gained knowledge, many probably already knew it but for those like me that didn't it might be helpful to know.

What rules things have you recently learned about?


Are you sure? I think the leaves the battlefield trigger only looks in exile.

Quote:
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-02 2:16 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There is no "leaves the battlefield trigger" on the new O-ring template. It just tracks the object that it tries to exile. As long as the object it tried to exile is in the same zone it went to when you tried to exile it, it will find it there (as long as it's a public zone and it hasn't left and come back.)

I thought I posted here about this (specifically its implications for EDH) back when these cards first started appearing, but maybe I just brought it up to judges.

Also, even though it is now way harder to make it happen, if you manage to mill a commander with Daxos of Meletis, you can cast it even if it gets put into the CZ.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-05 5:56 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Are you sure? I think the leaves the battlefield trigger only looks in exile.

Quote:
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.

It's important to read that rule carefully.

"During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything."

What the rule is saying above all else is that the card can't have subsequently changed zones.

Replacement effects may change the zone it moved to. That doesn't violate this rule, the rule says to look for the object in the zone it moved to, period. Not "the zone it was supposed to move to."

The second sentence doesn't change that, it talks about "the zone it went to" not "the zone it was supposed to go to."

It's very important to examine the specific ability on a given card.

The trigger on Oblivion Ring says "return the exiled card" (emphasis added) so it can't find the card if it's not in the exile zone.

But something like Astral Slide says "return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step." The delayed trigger will be able to find the card if it went to the command zone instead of the exile zone.

P.S. I hope this is still how it works. That's how I came to understand it a while ago, but I'm not a judge, not a current rules adviser, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-06 12:24 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tarnar wrote:
P.S. I hope this is still how it works. That's how I came to understand it a while ago, but I'm not a judge, not a current rules adviser, etc.
This is still correct, and (fun fact!) rules advisor no longer exists, so no need to sweat that one :) .

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-06 2:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
tarnar wrote:
P.S. I hope this is still how it works. That's how I came to understand it a while ago, but I'm not a judge, not a current rules adviser, etc.
This is still correct, and (fun fact!) rules advisor no longer exists, so no need to sweat that one :) .

Yeah, I learned that one when I got an email saying my rules advisor status was expiring -- so I went to the DCI website to renew it .. only there did I find out they were phasing it out :)

... would'a been nice for them to update the notification email ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-06 4:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
crokaycete wrote:
tarnar wrote:
P.S. I hope this is still how it works. That's how I came to understand it a while ago, but I'm not a judge, not a current rules adviser, etc.
This is still correct, and (fun fact!) rules advisor no longer exists, so no need to sweat that one :) .

And that's the rules thing I learned about today ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-06 10:08 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There was a complete overhaul of the judge levels about 6 months ago, they also removed the top levels 4 and 5 and replaced them with level 3 + specialization (they're not called specializations but I can't remember the name off hand), reworked the definitions for L1 and L2, in amongst that, rules advisor was discontinued.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-08 3:38 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
This isn't a 'things I learned about today' item, but it took me a long time to bother understanding what happens when a player leaves the game in multiplayer.

The short of it:

1. Did you steal something of the player leaving the game? It's gone.
2. Did the player leaving the game steal something of yours? It's yours again.
2a. Unless they stole it from your graveyard/library/hand and put it into play. Then it's exiled and not killed.

2 vs 2a still causes some grumbles at the table depending on the board state.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-08 8:04 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ah yeah, the tricky control effect problem. I still get that confused, and I play sen triplets.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 5:08 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
I haven't been putting an effort into learning all the rules, so I haven't really learned anything new recently. Here is a rule that a few people in my area didn't know some months ago.

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

Example: Two permanents are on the battlefield. One is an enchantment that reads “If a card would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead exile it,” and the other is a creature that reads “If [this creature] would be put into a graveyard from the battlefield, instead shuffle it into its owner’s library.” If the creature is destroyed, its controller decides which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules things I learned about today
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-10 6:43 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Addendum 1:
That second effect must also be applied IF that is still possible.
In the example scenario, the creature would no longer go to the graveyard, so effect #2 is no longer applicable. That is why it does nothing.


Addendum 2:
The same is true for any further replacement effect, that can be applied after the first has modified the event, even if it was not applicable from the start.

Suppose another effect reading "If a card would be shuffled into your library, exile it instead". It has not been applicable from the start, but it is now that #1 has been applied - in this scenario, the card would end up in exile either way.

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