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 Post subject: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-08 10:23 pm 

Joined: 2016-Dec-08 10:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Player at my LGS said that "since you can generate mana outside of color identity, it's a legal card"

He is running a Selesnya deck and has Murmuring Bosk in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 4:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Welcome to the forums!

The player at your LGS is mistaken. Murmuring Bosk has a green, white and black colour identity.

The change to the mana-outside-of-colour-identity rule did not also change the deck construction rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 4:40 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The removal of rule 4 mostly impacted sources of "any color" mana. CI rules haven't changed, so since Murmering Bosk is colorless with W, B, and G mana symbols in the rules text, it's CI is WBG.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 8:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Technically Bosk doesn't have a G on it. It's just a Forest.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 8:45 am 
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Joined: 2009-Apr-16 9:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Regina, SK
If you check the Comp Rules though, every Forest has the ability "T: Add G to your mana pool."

So that G is there, just hiding.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-09 2:02 pm 

Joined: 2016-Dec-08 10:20 pm
Age: Hatchling
Thanks people!

I couldn't figure out what exactly to say when 10 people are adamant that it is correct!


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-11 4:57 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Quote:
305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “{T}: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box.


Quote:
903.5d A card with a basic land type may be included in a Commander deck only if each color of mana it could produce is included in the commander’s color identity.


These two rules tell me that a land with the Forest type does not, in fact, have a green mana symbol in its text box, hidden or otherwise. Rather, the mana production of lands with basic land types is a game rule (not unlike how creatures have the intrinsic ability to attack and block unless otherwise stated) and not any kind of readable ability on the card.

I think this is kinda supported by the official gatherer text for Basic Forest which is just G. Its not a mana symbol in the strict sense of it being a cost or mana being produced, but seems to be a short hand way of writing the Reminder text we see on Murmuring Bosk about production of green mana.

If lands with basic types had the corresponding mana production ability as part of their official gatherer text we wouldn't need rule 903.5

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-11 12:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-02 11:09 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
These two rules tell me that a land with the Forest type does not, in fact, have a green mana symbol in its text box, hidden or otherwise. Rather, the mana production of lands with basic land types is a game rule (not unlike how creatures have the intrinsic ability to attack and block unless otherwise stated) and not any kind of readable ability on the card.


Can you literally not read? What part of a card's text do you think isn't a game rule? What the hell do you think is going to happen when someone casts Sudden Spoiling with a Life and Limb out?


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-11 5:01 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
niheloim wrote:
(not unlike how creatures have the intrinsic ability to attack and block unless otherwise stated)


It's, in fact, very unlike: Attacking is not an ability - neither intrinsic nor written - it's a game action (or rather a turn-based action, but don't quote me on that one). The inability to attack is an ability, named defender, obviously.
Muraganda Petroglyphs would be a REALLY pointless card otherwise.


"Tap: Add G" IS an ability (recognizable by the colon marking it as an "activated ability" and by rule 305.6. you already quoted).


As for Rule 903.5d: if you carefully read through the Comprehensive Rules, you will find a truckload of rules we actually don't need, because they're written redundantly in different places. That's just to improve readability - you find most of the rules for a certain situation in one place without the need to follow a million references in the process.

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Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 12:23 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You might want to actually learn the rules before you start accusing people of illiteracy.

The words "A land with a basic land type" refer to permanents. That is, lands on the battlefield. In other zones and outside the game (e.g., during deck construction) there are no lands, just land cards. This rule allows Blood Moon and Urborg and other type-setting abilities to function. It does not set the Oracle text of a Forest.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 12:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Thor_Naadoh wrote:
As for Rule 903.5d: if you carefully read through the Comprehensive Rules, you will find a truckload of rules we actually don't need, because they're written redundantly in different places.

I don't mean to be difficult, but could you cite some examples?

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 2:29 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
SnailSlug wrote:
Can you literally not read? What part of a card's text do you think isn't a game rule? What the hell do you think is going to happen when someone casts Sudden Spoiling with a Life and Limb out?

See - that's the thing -- A forest doesn't have card text (text in the text box). At all.

The whole reason you can tap it for mana is because of rule 305.6.

The whole reason your example there does anything is because of rule 305.6

Sid the Chicken wrote:
I don't mean to be difficult, but could you cite some examples?

I'm not who this was aimed at - but I do believe that there are some redundancies in the rules. I'm not sure I'd go with a "truckload" amount .. but there are some.

Here's an example:
302.7. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with neither wither nor infect is marked on that creature (see rule 119.3). If the total damage marked on that creature is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed as a state-based action (see rule 704). All damage marked on a creature is removed when it regenerates (see rule 701.13, "Regenerate") and during the cleanup step (see rule 514.2).

704.5g. If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.

So we have 2 rules that tell us a creature is destroyed when it has damage equal to or greater than it's toughness. Also, I'm sure if you look up Regeneration you'll see it saying that all damage is removed when it regenerates - so another duplication there.

You *could* rewrite the rules so that there isn't this overlap -- but then it'd be even harder to follow/read than it already is because you are going out of your way to never restate the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 5:58 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
305.6 doesn't actually interact with color identity. That's why we need 903.5d

Incorporating intrinsic text into color identity would flip how extort works, too. We could make it happen, but status quo seems fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 6:20 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Carthain wrote:
I'm not who this was aimed at

Thor_Naadoh.... that's why I quoted him. Regardless, you've made an attempt to answer the question. I think of those notations more like reminder text - it's rule 704 that actually says "creatures that have taken lethal damage are destroyed" and the other rules say "this happens because of rule 704". I get what you're saying though, and I agree with this;
Carthain wrote:
You *could* rewrite the rules so that there isn't this overlap -- but then it'd be even harder to follow/read than it already is because you are going out of your way to never restate the same thing.

Although as Papa_funk said, we actually DO need 903.5d because what it does is NOT reproduced elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule regarding Murmuring Bosk
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-12 6:44 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Carthain wrote:
You *could* rewrite the rules so that there isn't this overlap -- but then it'd be even harder to follow/read than it already is because you are going out of your way to never restate the same thing.

Although as Papa_funk said, we actually DO need 903.5d because what it does is NOT reproduced elsewhere.

I was not including that as my example -- so I'm not sure why you attributed it to this :)

I know we need 903.5d -- I was there in a long thread we had about it a while ago ;) (And that's where I learned about "intrinsic" text in the rules)


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